Hey guys. Longtime lurker, first time poster.

After much lurking and Googling, I pulled the trigger on a Breville Oracle. I was able to buy a new one for less than MSRP, which seemed to be a good opportunity. Since purchasing, I have come across a consistent theme--especially on reddit--which is that people seem to hate on this machine. The most common actual point of criticism seems to be the grinder.

I am now wondering whether I made a bad purchase (and should get out of it) or if people are just grumpy/trolling because the Oracle takes away some of the art from espresso. The most important thing to me is consistently high-quality / barista/restaurant-quality espresso. Other less important things, but by no means unimportant, is the convenience. This sort of blends into quality, though, because all of the reviews I've seen heap praise on the auto-frothing wand and the tamping. Things that a newbie like myself is likely to mess up.

Bottom line - is the grinder really that bad that it's going to ruin the entire experience, resulting in a lot of wasted money? Or do some of the critics just have sour grapes? Somewhere in between?

Appreciate the feedback! Thank you.

Edit:
I should add that this is my current equipment, so no matter what this is a massive upgrade.

You'd have much better potential espresso with a Breville 920 and litany of possible far better separate grinders than what's built into the Oracle.

Compass Coffee wrote:You'd have much better potential espresso with a Breville 920 and litany of possible far better separate grinders than what's built into the Oracle.

This is the kind of very short and seemingly dismissive comment I'm concerned about. Do you really think that the Breville grinder is that bad? My understanding is that it's basically a standard Breville grinder. So I'd assume that means you would tell people to always steer away from it?

Do you think that the grinder is so poor that it's going to result in worse extractions than a novice would be able to pull out of the BDB with a superior grinder?

I basically selected this machine on the basis of the following comments (which have been typical in all reviews I've seen [while trying to filter out the ad-like/sponsored "reviews"]):

However if you're looking for a traditional semi-automatic prosumer espresso machine that allows you to have full control of the entire coffee making process - aka barista consumers like me - I would not get the Breville Oracle, and instead invest in a great grinder and a prosumer espresso machine like the Rocket R2 or if you're on a smaller budget, go for the Breville Dual Boiler. The main reason being that after you master the correct barista technique a manual prosumer semi-automatic machines will still always produce the better coffee (*).

But what if you're a person in between? A person who is new to coffee making, is not a barista, and looking for a first espresso machine. I think the Breville Oracle is a great option for you as it allows you to make great coffee straight out of the box, while allowing you to experiment with manual coffee making. I know from experience it took me months to get good at coffee making, and there's nothing more frustrating than buying an expensive piece of gear and not knowing how to bring out its full potential. For this reason I think the hybrid nature of the Oracle is a fantastic option for you, as you'll be able to make great coffee straight away that'll surely impress your friends.

* Since the BDB and the Oracle are essentially identical but for the grinder, tamp, and wand, and since the manual mode on the Oracle wand appears identical to the BDB wand, I can only assume this is a criticism of the grinder or the auto-tamp. I'd really like some comments about this because, as noted above, unless the grinder is REALLY poor, I'm not understanding the criticism, but I am sufficiently worried to consider going back on my purchase and doing it over again.Thanks again for any insight or feedback.

I should probably also clarify that I was able to spend under $2,000. I did not find much of anything that had the features of the Oracle for $2,000, never mind several hundred dollars less. Probably at a similar price-point would've been a $550-$700 grinder and a BDB, which, of course, lacks auto-tamp and the superior wand. (But maybe those "features" aren't worth anything because they're not as good as a human. I guess that's what I'm here to find out.)

The built in grinder is the weaker half of the Oracle. I am pulling shots using my new Monolith Conical on a BDB and getting good shots. My Strega and Cremina can produce better shots, but they have a lot more manual control available to me to adjust the shot as well. The Brevilles are dead simple to use, steam well, and you can learn a lot from it as a first machine.

$2000 can get you a manual lever (used Cremina) and a Pharos, a setup that has produced some of the best shots I have ever pulled. But, this is a much more analog and manual setup that not everyone has the patience or will use.

In general, a better grinder will improve your coffee more than a better espresso machine, that said, if you can get the grinder on the Oracle to produce a shot that tastes good, that is all that matters. If you later want to upgrade you can sell the Oracle very easily and try something else. Upgraditis is incurable after all.

I originally wasn't going to respond since I don't have direct experience with the Oracle, but it seems like you are short on opinions...

Your primary concern seems to be in the ability of the integrated grinder and as I understand it, Oracle's grinder is basically a Smart Grinder Pro (BCG820). I had the original Smart Grinder (BCG800) paired with my BES900 and wasn't impressed. It couldn't grind fine enough and didn't have enough granularity in the adjustments. I've read that the Pro version (BCG820) takes care of these issues and is a solid entry level grinder, which in turn should mean the Oracle's integrated grinder is good enough.

Looking at the numbers (MSRP):
BES980 = $2000
BES920 = $1300
BCG820 = $200

You are paying roughly $500 for all the automation. Reallocating that money away from automation and towards a better grinder would probably net some taste improvements but at the expense of convenience. Whether it's worth it to you is your call.

One thing to keep in mind is that there are diminishing returns as you spend more on better equipment. In the big scheme of things, a $700 grinder is a mid-tier machine. While it'll probably have some better grind consistency, I think the biggest improvement will be the build quality, which should translate into a longer usable lifetime and/or serviceability.

I don't know if it's ok to link to other forums, so instead I'll just mention that searching for breville oracle owner will pull up quite a bit of feedback on the machine from existing owners.

You've already discovered in your searches that Breville is a pretty polarizing topic. Since you already pulled the trigger, I wouldn't normally comment, but you did mention the possibility of getting out of the deal, so I'll put my 2 cents in.

First, I have never owned or used the Oracle. So I can't make any direct-experience based judgement on it. I have owned the original BDB900, and the original version of the Smart Grinder as well. I now own the 920 machine and the newest model Smart Grinder Pro. My only other machine was retro looking Saeco, which I had before the 900. You may or may not find that most of the 'hater' comments you'll find around the internet are from people who have never owned or used any Breville machines or grinders. You may or may not find that the majority of bad experiences among actual owners/users are tied to the original versions and not the newer versions.

It is true that the 900 model and original Smart Grinder had some issues. I've found that the 920 and the Smart Grinder Pro addressed all the concerns I had or had encountered, and they added improvements that I wouldn't have thought of at all, but immediately appreciated.

So, assuming the newest Oracle is effectively using the same grinder and espresso machine 'guts' as the SGP and the 920, I'd say you are in pretty good shape. The caveat that I would add based on 'general' experience (not directly with the Oracle) is that the more fully automated you go, the more potential maintenance and servicing you can expect.

IF you are not dead-set on a fully automated approach, and IF you have the counter space, and IF you are willing/able to cancel the Oracle order, I would recommend the separate 920 BDB and Smart Grinder Pro. You can probably find less than full MSRP on those as well, and you save a few hundred dollars. Also, with separate machines, you can upgrade one or the other without needing to replace both. But this is just a different approach, not necessarily 'better' because you define what 'better' means to you, anyway

But the Oracle exists because it meets a certain segment of the customers' desires. I would not at all say that you made a mistake. I only suggested the option because you mentioned getting out of the deal.

If you hadn't mentioned that, I would just say congrats on getting a good deal, enjoy the big upgrade over your current gear, and have fun experimenting. I've been happy with all of my Breville products (coffee related or not).

The seemingly short and dismissive comment above was simply telling the truth without mincing words, from a very experienced member. Nobody is hating on anything.

The espresso part of the Oracle is just fine - the BDB 920 is a great machine for the money. But if you spend enough time with espresso and see the opinions here and elsewhere, the common theme will be the relative importance of the grinder - in terms of espresso quality, taste, and consistency.

The Oracle's grinder will make life simpler but is not cost-efficient as far as result in the cup goes. It's as simple as that. It has nothing to do with the art of espresso or similarly romantic notions - this idea is actually more dismissive than any comments here - it's about how good the coffee is.

I have a Breville Smart Pro grinder that I use for decaf brews, and it's just ok, but I find the espresso from it pales in comparison to the Baratza Vario I use, which is that $600 grinder that, when paired with a BDB 920, amounts to the same cost as an Oracle.

If convenience is your main priority, then I wouldn't say you made a bad purchase - especially if you are happy with your espresso. But all grinders are not created equal and the Oracle's grinder is mediocre at best. Therefore, the coffee is not as good as it could be (for a similar cost), given that the rest of the machine is very good.

coffeedom wrote:The seemingly short and dismissive comment above was simply telling the truth without mincing words, from a very experienced member. Nobody is hating on anything.

I wasn't referring to any previous comments in this thread: the OP mentioned reddit, and others mentioned 'other forums.' My comment about what he might find in terms of negative reviews was directed toward those general sources. I apologize if my post was interpreted as singling out any previous posts above.

Hi Bret, I wasn't referring to anything you wrote, sorry for the confusion. I was referring to the response to Mike McGinness:

HoyaZot wrote:This is the kind of very short and seemingly dismissive comment I'm concerned about. Do you really think that the Breville grinder is that bad? My understanding is that it's basically a standard Breville grinder. So I'd assume that means you would tell people to always steer away from it?

Anyway, the OP is here to find out what makes the machine good and bad, and why, which is what we are doing I think.

The OP also mentioned the possibility of human dosing and tamping being better than the automated dose and tamp. The tamp I think is fine either way, but the automated dosing isn't as good. It's just not going to be as consistent with the real weight of the coffee from shot to shot. Standalone grinders will be better for that, allowing for single dosing or having built in scales, or overdosing and scraping off the excess, another way to get roughly consistent results. The Oracle doesn't allow this much control over how much coffee ends up in the basket, and how evenly it can be distributed before tamping.

HoyaZot wrote:This is the kind of very short and seemingly dismissive comment I'm concerned about. Do you really think that the Breville grinder is that bad? My understanding is that it's basically a standard Breville grinder. So I'd assume that means you would tell people to always steer away from it?

Do you think that the grinder is so poor that it's going to result in worse extractions than a novice would be able to pull out of the BDB with a superior grinder?

You are correct, I'd steer anyone away from a Breville grinder. Why? Yes it may be adequate but adequate is not the Mission of Home-Barista.com but rather as you can see on the banner above the Mission is Your guide to exceptional espresso.

That was your first post and you were not asking buying advice. You asked "did I do good" on that purchase and I gave my honest opinion of the purchase based on my home barista experience beginning long before I turned professional.

Yes, IMO a novice with even a half hour or so training could pull better espresso with a better grinder and a BDB than with an Oracle. For the same $ investment.

If you've been lurking for some time as you say ought not to expect experienced people "co-signing" what you want to hear. Was the Oracle a bad choice? No, but I wouldn't call it a good choice either.