Breville Dual Boiler "Slayer shots"? - Page 16
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mrjag
- Posts: 343
- Joined: 9 years ago
In an attempt to eat my own dog food, I reconfigured my machine and pulled 3 shots over lunch using the method I proposed.
The first shot was a learning experience. I underestimated how difficult it would be to juggle reading from the shot recipe printout, monitor the timer and pressure gauge, and making adjustments in short succession all at the same time. I also forgot to adjust the grind level in advance so the shot ran fast, as expected.
For shot #2, I made a small adjusted to my MonoCon from 2.0 to 1.5. In hindsight, I should have known it wasn't enough of an adjustment, but I was worried about overshooting and choking the BDB. The shot process was easier to manage the second time around, but again ran faster that it should have because I didn't adjust fine enough.
For shot #3 I went full hog and adjusted from my original 2.0 to -2.0. (I actually cut a new triangle out of painters tape, marking 10.0 with it, then adjusted down to 6.0 using the new marker). The surface of the puck was noticeably smoother due to the fine grind setting. Even with the 4 notch change in grind setting, I didn't manage to choke the shot. The shot pulled slower than the reference Slayer video from earlier so I'll need to back off the grind a little bit.
I am stopping the shots based on my target weight (19g in, 40g out) because that is what works for my current bean. Even though all 3 shots have different timings, none of them tasted bad. Infact, even the 70s shot from #3 had no bitterness. I'll continue adjusting the grind level until I end up with a 55s shot based on the reference Slayer shot video.
I've updated the slayer shot recipe with additional descriptors to help with the process.
The first shot was a learning experience. I underestimated how difficult it would be to juggle reading from the shot recipe printout, monitor the timer and pressure gauge, and making adjustments in short succession all at the same time. I also forgot to adjust the grind level in advance so the shot ran fast, as expected.
For shot #2, I made a small adjusted to my MonoCon from 2.0 to 1.5. In hindsight, I should have known it wasn't enough of an adjustment, but I was worried about overshooting and choking the BDB. The shot process was easier to manage the second time around, but again ran faster that it should have because I didn't adjust fine enough.
For shot #3 I went full hog and adjusted from my original 2.0 to -2.0. (I actually cut a new triangle out of painters tape, marking 10.0 with it, then adjusted down to 6.0 using the new marker). The surface of the puck was noticeably smoother due to the fine grind setting. Even with the 4 notch change in grind setting, I didn't manage to choke the shot. The shot pulled slower than the reference Slayer video from earlier so I'll need to back off the grind a little bit.
I am stopping the shots based on my target weight (19g in, 40g out) because that is what works for my current bean. Even though all 3 shots have different timings, none of them tasted bad. Infact, even the 70s shot from #3 had no bitterness. I'll continue adjusting the grind level until I end up with a 55s shot based on the reference Slayer shot video.
I've updated the slayer shot recipe with additional descriptors to help with the process.
mrjag wrote: 0:00: Hold the manual button to begin pre-infusion mode
0:05: Adjust the water knob towards closed to start ramping pressure. (About 2-3mm from closed is the point at which pressure starts building up on my machine.)
0:12: Fully close water knob to ramp pressure more quickly and hit 3 bars of pressure by 0:18
0:24: Release the manual button to begin full pressure and full flow extraction at 9 bar
0:45: Barely open water knob to begin declining pressure profile. (My useful range of adjustment is from 0-3mm from closed on the knob.)
0:55: end shot
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eltakeiteasy
- Posts: 479
- Joined: 6 years ago
I'll be interested to see what you think of this method long-term. I initially tried this (almost) exact workflow and did not taste any difference "in the cup" vs. the method that I laid out. The other issue I had with this was consistency between each shot as the beans changed. One of the issues with the water knob "hack" is that it's linear. When you increase pressure you increase flow. This is the opposite of now Slayer does it. You did a great job at listing each step and think that this will be very valuable for those who have not tried this type of shot!mrjag wrote:In an attempt to eat my own dog food, I reconfigured my machine and pulled 3 shots over lunch using the method I proposed.
The first shot was a learning experience. I underestimated how difficult it would be to juggle reading from the shot recipe printout, monitor the timer and pressure gauge, and making adjustments in short succession all at the same time. I also forgot to adjust the grind level in advance so the shot ran fast, as expected.
For shot #2, I made a small adjusted to my MonoCon from 2.0 to 1.5. In hindsight, I should have known it wasn't enough of an adjustment, but I was worried about overshooting and choking the BDB. The shot process was easier to manage the second time around, but again ran faster that it should have because I didn't adjust fine enough.
For shot #3 I went full hog and adjusted from my original 2.0 to -2.0. (I actually cut a new triangle out of painters tape, marking 10.0 with it, then adjusted down to 6.0 using the new marker). The surface of the puck was noticeably smoother due to the fine grind setting. Even with the 4 notch change in grind setting, I didn't manage to choke the shot. The shot pulled slower than the reference Slayer video from earlier so I'll need to back off the grind a little bit.
I am stopping the shots based on my target weight (19g in, 40g out) because that is what works for my current bean. Even though all 3 shots have different timings, none of them tasted bad. Infact, even the 70s shot from #3 had no bitterness. I'll continue adjusting the grind level until I end up with a 55s shot based on the reference Slayer shot video.
I've updated the slayer shot recipe with additional descriptors to help with the process.
LMWDP #672.
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pcrussell50 (original poster)
- Posts: 4036
- Joined: 15 years ago
So, summing what I think is happening... there are differences between the way BDB does a Slayer shot and the way Slayer does a Slayer shot, having to do with pressure and flow during pre infusion/pre brew/low water debit mode, whereby if you operate the BDB on low debit, you also get low pressure, vice the Slayer, where pressure will eventually rise during low debit.
Warning, arcane stuff ahead:
The question is, how big is the effect these differences have in the cup? (Sorry for the engineer-speak) Are these going to be first-order taste differences? Or second-order taste differences? I've got to think the latter, although we are definitely into an area that cannot be quantified except maybe with a refractometer... maybe. And that is supposing that maximum EY is always better tasting, which I do not take as a given. Is Slayer designed to kill it on an EY test? Or is it merely designed to extract more from the desirable portion of the extraction spectrum, relative to the less desirable portions? Jim Schulman... cough...
-Peter
Warning, arcane stuff ahead:
The question is, how big is the effect these differences have in the cup? (Sorry for the engineer-speak) Are these going to be first-order taste differences? Or second-order taste differences? I've got to think the latter, although we are definitely into an area that cannot be quantified except maybe with a refractometer... maybe. And that is supposing that maximum EY is always better tasting, which I do not take as a given. Is Slayer designed to kill it on an EY test? Or is it merely designed to extract more from the desirable portion of the extraction spectrum, relative to the less desirable portions? Jim Schulman... cough...
-Peter
LMWDP #553
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BaristaBob
- Posts: 1876
- Joined: 6 years ago
Speaking of 50 sec shots, I found myself in this region this morning. Pulling a 53s shot as I explored the capacities of my New MonoCon. My favorite morning coffee is Kaldi's Espresso 700. For my taste it has that nice balance of caramel, and chocolate with medium acidity. With my old grinder the best spot was 18g in, 36g out, 30s (incl 15s preinfusion). This morning I decided to crank the MonoCon down 3 notches and see what would happen. Holding the manual button down the first drop hit the cup at 17s (so only a 2 sec difference), however, here is where it got interesting. The stream slowly formed taking another 36s at 9 bars pressure to get 36g in the cup. Well...it's the best shot I've ever pulled with this coffee. All the flavors were still there, even the acidity with incredible sweetness. I realized this note has been missing...sweetness! After that experience, I tried it with the Cafe Lusso Carmo that Denis sent with the MonoCon. In the 50s again, but with this bean, the flavors became "muddy". It's back to the low 40s and backing off the grind for this coffee. I'd love to measure the EY on all these shots, as others have studied and deduced, EY is not the end all for flavor. It's too bad, if it were, we would all own TDS meters, shoot for the moon, and drink the best cups of coffee every day. So in the end god shots still aren't that common, we are all trying to get closer to achieving them with greater regularity, and it's a fun journey. To all...keep up the great work! Ha, if it weren't for you guys I would have never tried a 50+ second shot. Go figure!
Bob "hello darkness my old friend..I've come to drink you once again"
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eltakeiteasy
- Posts: 479
- Joined: 6 years ago
Hopefully, my last post answered this questionBaristaBob wrote:Ryan,
So help me with this...I've been using the lowest power to pump setting of 55% figuring I want to keep the flow (in g/s) as low as possible during the preinfusion stage. My gauge typically will read 1 to 3 bars over 15 seconds of pi. Measuring the flow rate over that same time period at 55% gives me about 3g/s. The rest of my extraction flow at 9 bars works out to 8g/s. If I'm hearing you correctly, I should be using 85% power to the pump and then dial in with the water knob to more closely similate what happens during the Slayer prebrew stage?
If not happy to discuss more.LMWDP #672.
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Bret
- Posts: 611
- Joined: 8 years ago
I think longer shots are an interesting exploration area for us: cafes can't afford to double the shot time, but for us it is not impactful. My long all-high-pressure shots of 50-70s with the thick emulsion drip drip drip lasting 30-45 seconds taste great with Malabar Gold. I've swiped a small spoon through the thick drips and I get an interesting combination of savory with a bit of sweetness. I'm going to experiment with the same approach on a different roast soon, and expect to see some differences.BaristaBob wrote:Speaking of 50 sec shots, I found myself in this region this morning. Pulling a 53s shot as I explored the capacities of my New MonoCon. My favorite morning coffee is Kaldi's Espresso 700. For my taste it has that nice balance of caramel, and chocolate with medium acidity. With my old grinder the best spot was 18g in, 36g out, 30s (incl 15s preinfusion). This morning I decided to crank the MonoCon down 3 notches and see what would happen. Holding the manual button down the first drop hit the cup at 17s (so only a 2 sec difference), however, here is where it got interesting. The stream slowly formed taking another 36s at 9 bars pressure to get 36g in the cup. Well...it's the best shot I've ever pulled with this coffee. All the flavors were still there, even the acidity with incredible sweetness. I realized this note has been missing...sweetness! After that experience, I tried it with the Cafe Lusso Carmo that Denis sent with the MonoCon. In the 50s again, but with this bean, the flavors became "muddy". It's back to the low 40s and backing off the grind for this coffee. I'd love to measure the EY on all these shots, as others have studied and deduced, EY is not the end all for flavor. It's too bad, if it were, we would all own TDS meters, shoot for the moon, and drink the best cups of coffee every day. So in the end god shots still aren't that common, we are all trying to get closer to achieving them with greater regularity, and it's a fun journey. To all...keep up the great work! Ha, if it weren't for you guys I would have never tried a 50+ second shot. Go figure!
So I don't even try to fit in the 30 second range for shots anymore. I think those recipes are constrained for the best tasting shot within that time constraint for the cafe environment. I'm much more intrigued by the best tastes I get in around 60 seconds. That's where my explorations are headed.
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eltakeiteasy
- Posts: 479
- Joined: 6 years ago
I completely agree! On my long thick emulsion drip drip drip lasting 30-45 second shots, I get a sweet salty taste. Really good but hard to describe. I think one of the really fun things about this hobby (at least for me) is doing the exact opposite of what the roaster recommends and see what kind of taste I can get with multiple different combinations while still trying to hit their tasting notes.
LMWDP #672.
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pcrussell50 (original poster)
- Posts: 4036
- Joined: 15 years ago
Notfernuthin' but while perusing how the users of my other favorite machine, the GS/3, go about their long slow "Slayerlike" pre infusions, it seems at least some of them regulate their plumbed line pressure down to... 1-2 bar, and pre infuse with that. About the same as setting your BDB to pre infusion pressure to pp55. You know that the headapace is filled when you get 1-2 bar on the group pressure gauge. "Slayerlike" in quotes because Slayer's separate path for "pre brew" allows for full pressure once the lines and headspace are full. Ours does not allow for this (a low debit pp55 setting), unless we add a parallel needle valve path, or plumb in a coarse threaded needle valve into the single line brew path. Coarse threaded so that you can turn the knob from low debit, to full flow, within a reasonable physiological wrist movement as the shot progresses.
-Peter
-Peter
LMWDP #553
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pcrussell50 (original poster)
- Posts: 4036
- Joined: 15 years ago
Ok, just got back from Berlin and Paris late last night.
Playing out JakeG's idea of re plumbing the BDB brew path through the water valve, which is a needle valve in physical reality, I did some preliminary water debit experiments before I open her up to look at the fittings I will need to do this. I was worried based on input from someone else here that while the BDB water valve is a needle and seat, it is coarse, and not micrometric. Which is true enough, BUT... it was surprisingly easy to get a very low water deficit. I got a 1g/s (30g in 30s) pretty easily, though with very little movement of the knob after full closed. I imagine that with a proper micormetric needle valve, you could do much more valve movement for small water flow changes. BUT using the water valve, you could set a very small water deficit AND open her up to full flow without too much of a wrist twist, to finish the shot.
I see this as an improvement over what we are doing now, which is running the pump at reduced power for the pre infusion. And super easy and reversible.
-Peter
Playing out JakeG's idea of re plumbing the BDB brew path through the water valve, which is a needle valve in physical reality, I did some preliminary water debit experiments before I open her up to look at the fittings I will need to do this. I was worried based on input from someone else here that while the BDB water valve is a needle and seat, it is coarse, and not micrometric. Which is true enough, BUT... it was surprisingly easy to get a very low water deficit. I got a 1g/s (30g in 30s) pretty easily, though with very little movement of the knob after full closed. I imagine that with a proper micormetric needle valve, you could do much more valve movement for small water flow changes. BUT using the water valve, you could set a very small water deficit AND open her up to full flow without too much of a wrist twist, to finish the shot.
I see this as an improvement over what we are doing now, which is running the pump at reduced power for the pre infusion. And super easy and reversible.
-Peter
LMWDP #553
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Bret
- Posts: 611
- Joined: 8 years ago
Here are some quick iPhone shots of the mirror and light set up. I use cups with white interiors, so the light position bounces light out of the cup and onto the basket. The light could also be placed on the drip tray and pointed directly at the basket, but I don't like having extra stuff on the tray.JayBeck wrote:Bret, could you show a picture of your light and mirror set up? Looks very nice!
light
https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B003Y3VAYA/
The mirror can be positioned in any number of places, but this spot works for me: if it is too low and the mirror frame itself touches the drip tray, it will vibrate when the pump is on which adds a bit of blur to what you see
mirror
https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B002BX5ULS/
