Peter, I wasn't attacking you, or questioning your judgement, I was merely offering my experience as an example of something that may well be typical. And, yes, you can call the problems I experienced "simple maintenance" if you like, but I've never had to replace a seal or gasket or valve in my Rocket, granted, perhaps I've been lucky.pcrussell50 wrote:Two service calls in two years? And you call that "chronic problems"? And besides, why would you (or anybody), return a machine for a simple leak that takes five minutes to fix with a ten cent o-ring? I will say that your case is a little more frequent than most. My last machine went five years with one ten minute o-ring change. I think that is more typical.
When I bought my BDB in 2012, I wasn't aware of the information on-line on how to do repairs. I didn't even look. I thought I had a defective unit. Which, from my way of thinking, I did. I don't expect to have leaks in three different $1000+ machines within 2 years. To me, that's not routine maintenance, it's a design flaw.pcrussell50 wrote: Some research? Notwithstanding the fact that this simple maintenance has been known for years...Pull the clip, take out the old o-ring, replace with the new one, replace the clip. No offense but if that is a bit much for you, you are in for an expensive service life in espresso.
Could have fixed yourself? Notwithstanding your miracle machine (mentioned below), of five years, five thousand shots, with absolutely ZERO attention (do I have that right?), everybody else with a saturated brew group machine, which is what it takes to match the BDB in thermal stability and other means of advanced extraction is not so lucky. If you follow La Marzocco's scheduled maintenance, you are in for $150 in parts alone, just for the first year maintenance. And it gets more involved as you go.
Evidently, Breville would agree (as you say, it has been fixed with a redesign). Also, why would Breville replace machines under warranty for something that's "simple maintenance." It's like a car dealership swapping out a car for bad wiper blades. I think Breville, to their credit, recognized that leaks are not something that should be an issue so soon. What's baffling to me is why it wasn't quickly re-engineered.
I did have one issue with the Rocket. After it had been sitting unused for an extended period (I think it was around 2 months) the steam boiler wasn't auto-filling. After removing the water level probe and draining/refilling the boiler, the problem disappeared. Not sure if cleaning the probe was necessary, or if just refilling with fresh water fixed it. I didn't include that because it seemed more my fault than the machine. I shouldn't have let it sit so long without draining the boiler. Other than that, all I've done for 5 years is a backflush after every session, detergent backflush every 150 shots, and I replaced the group gasket this year. If that makes it a miracle machine in your estimation, so be it.
Actually it was 3 times in two years. All 3 machines exhibited various leaking problems, and by then I'd read on-line that that others were also having problems, I lost confidence that my experience was just a run of bad luck. I decided to sell the third machine.pcrussell50 wrote: Two service calls in two years leads to ZERO confidence? Notwithstanding the fact that you did it only twice in two years, essentially a service call from an espresso tech each year, That's like taking your car to the dealership to change the wiper blades and add washer fluid. Obviously DIY skills will vary, but that's a little extreme.
I didn't investigate any further after getting disgusted and selling it. However, reading through this thread, and others I've run across when trying to decide it a BDB was worth trying again, there seem to be a variety of problems still being mentioned: Bad solenoid valves, bad pumps, constantly tripping GFCI (possibly o-ring related), heat damage to the heated group (peeling coating/paint) and bad steam valves. I think those are the main issues I noticed, but I haven't followed it closely at all.pcrussell50 wrote: What else does go wrong? Anything? Do you even know? Or just spreading FUD?
You either have a miracle machine, or a VERY big date with the piper coming up. Of course, yours is an E61 and you have to live with the capability restrictions of an E61, (something I could not do myself, but that is pure subjectivity). That is why I keep referring to saturated brew groups, which if my BDB were to ever develop a problem bigger than a wiper blade change and a fluid top-off, is what I would replace it with. But eight years in, that just hasn't happened.
Many problems? Besides the older versions needing o-rings every couple-three years, can you name anything else?
I wasn't recommending a Rocket or ECM, or whatever, I was merely offering my experience in case it was helpful to other people may share my bias toward durability and problem-free operation. But, of course, you're right, there's no guarantee when you buy a machine. One person may get a BDB and have no issues, and another might get a lemon Rocket, or some other brand. But, some brands have a reputation for durability and some do not, so you play the odds.
Regarding capability restrictions of the E61, that certainly hasn't bothered me. I never thought pre-infusion was critical. Having had experience with both the BDB and Rocket, I think they both make excellent shots when properly dialed in. Personally, I felt like my shots improved somewhat with the Rocket, seemed a little richer and sweeter, but that was just a purely subjective feeling after switching. I didn't do a side by side, and it wouldn't matter, just one person's subjective opinion.
Recently, ECM/Profitec have introduced a flow control valve for most E61 machines. With that, you can play with pre-infusion and various flow rates during the shot: https://www.wholelattelove.com/products ... rol-device
Looks like it could be an interesting thing to play with. But I'm in no hurry.
I'm glad I could make you feel like Luke Skywalker. It's kind of funny/sad how emotional you seem defending an espresso machine. I wasn't attacking you or Breville, just offering my opinion and my experience that's different.pcrussell50 wrote: I feel like Luke Skywalker in The Last Jedi... "Amazing. Everything you just said is wrong". Breville does address these things. They no longer use o-rings on top of the boilers. It's been a year and a half since that update and there are no reports of leaks yet. But changing o-rings is sooo easy and cheap, I don't know how much of a win it is. They now make the group collar easily replaceable. There really isn't much else.
But if you are the sort to get your washer fluid refilled at the dealership, even those things will be of little use to you.
I didn't realize that Breville had made a fix to the o-ring issue. That's great. I may be weird, but I like the idea of fixing problems that don't need to exist. I have idea what too them so long, but I'm glad they fixed it.
Again, o-ring replacement (at least on the frequency I experienced) isn't routine maintenance. Breville didn't mention it as so. It became a routine thing for BDB users, out of necessity, because of a design flaw. If Breville has fixed that, as you say, good for them.pcrussell50 wrote: What do we call simple maintenance a "work around" when it is a Breville, and "routine maintenance" when it is a saturated brew group machine. If you perform your own annual scheduled maintenance on a La Marzocco do you call that a "work around"? Does La Marzocco call their required maintenance a "work around"?
No one told me they hadn't, I just didn't realize that they had. I truly hope that resolves that problem. It's a cool machine that I could consider again, in the future, if it looks like it's become less of a hassle to own.pcrussell50 wrote: Who told you they did not update the o-ring scheme? What problems? Somebody has given you bad information.