Abecker wrote:I was wondering if they were going to do the same to the BDB that they did to the Infuser and Oracle and add the touch screen controls to it.

This is my bet

Randy

pcrussell50 wrote:Don't know anything about the COO, except that the current COO, who I had never heard of, didn't come on the property until the BDB had already been out for five years.

Sorry, I meant "County of Origin". There's something special still about "Made in Italy" stamped on the bottom for a lot of people. Same for Swiss watches, American guitars, British amps etc.

pcrussell50 wrote:can't be touched in the cup until you start approaching four times the price, one wonders where it would stand in the market?

Is that generally considered to be true? That it's better than a ~$2,500 E61 in the cup?

Fascinating thread...

My 3 YO 920xl is has a leaky steam wand-- needs a the ball-valve replacement. I really like this machine, but have been chagrined by the absence of this part....

My plans are to soldier on with the leaky team wand until I see other failures-- I'll then send it into Breville for repair. I have other espresso machines, so no big deal.

What I'm actually doing is buying time to see if the Decent machines really pan out, or perhaps, if Breville has something new to supplant the 920xl. In any case, the Decent Espresso machines take the 920xl concept to the next level...I think?

(I've checked out the Vesuvius-- too much machine for our kitchen....like the idea of an advanced espresso system made for the home enthusiast.)

Another BDB owner who was lucky enough to score one of the last ball valves, sent me his leaky ball valve for study. At some point, I'll have sussed out an of the shelf replacement from somewhere. The world is awash in ball valves and it is certain that there are dozens of manufacturers out there that make the right one. So I'm not too worried about the ability to keep these reliable and easy to maintain machines running.

My point in starting this thread was more to solicit analysis about what Breville might have in store for the BDB program going forward. It has been interesting discussion.

-Peter

Peter-- you've been pointing the way forward for BDB owners for several years-- thank you!

My uniformed guess:
The Oracle and its upgraded touch-screen model must be enabling nice profit margins. The 920xl may be a step-child...as other have written here, the next iteration, if offered, will have a touch-screen and a hefty price boost to position it more closely to the Oracle products. Look at the Barista Touch model ($1,199.95)-- it's DOUBLE the price of the Barista Express ($599.95) and just $100 less than the 920xl ($1,295.95). Would be fascinating to know the data of who buys 920xl s.

It would be interesting, if they do come out with a new BDB model, to see if they incorporate some of the features which user's have "hacked" into their machines. I have seen posts about long preinfusions, and adjusting brew pressure be relieving some through the hot water knob. Breville could give users more control of pump pressure throughout the brewing cycle instead of only during preinfusion.

SonVolt wrote:Sorry, I meant "County of Origin". There's something special still about "Made in Italy" stamped on the bottom for a lot of people. Same for Swiss watches, American guitars, British amps etc.

There is no question that this is correct. Especially in culinary pursuits (like espresso) where it's often as much about art as science. In fairness to the Chinese, they are capable of making anything, to any quality the client desires... Apple computer and iPhone iPad come to mind here.

RE the BDB's temperature stability:

SonVolt wrote:Is that generally considered to be true? That it's better than a ~$2,500 E61 in the cup?

The answer to your question takes the form of another question... What you have to ask yourself is why someone would spend $7000 and up for a saturated brew group machine (like a GS/3), vice $2500 for an E61 machine. The answer to that question would be the same as why someone might choose the BDB over an E61. It's why I did. It has to do with reduction of ritual, in order to get the shot you want. E61's can make delicious shots with the best of them, but it requires more ritual to bring them into "the zone". I have to perform rituals in order to get the best shots out of my lever machines, too. But with the BDB and saturated brew group machines, there is a lot less ritual involved in getting the exact temperature you want. I know that a lot of home roasters like "lab grade" temperature stability for determining temperatures that work best for a new roast.

-Peter

I seem to remember Breville teasing a rotary pump BDB at a show a few years back - I wonder what ever came of that idea? I would love to see them incorporate a gear pump and include pressure profiles in their next release, but highly doubt that would happen since their target market for this machine likely wouldn't care or know how to effectively use them. The enthusiasts on the other hand - that would be another game changing machine if they could do that and keep it around $2k. I know I would buy one, as I have been extremely pleased with the performance and reliability of my BDB.

pcrussell50 wrote:There is no question that this is correct. Especially in culinary pursuits (like espresso) where it's often as much about art as science. In fairness to the Chinese, they are capable of making anything, to any quality the client desires... Apple computer and iPhone iPad come to mind here.

RE the BDB's temperature stability:


The answer to your question takes the form of another question... What you have to ask yourself is why someone would spend $7000 and up for a saturated brew group machine (like a GS/3), vice $2500 for an E61 machine. The answer to that question would be the same as why someone might choose the BDB over an E61. It's why I did. It has to do with reduction of ritual, in order to get the shot you want. E61's can make delicious shots with the best of them, but it requires more ritual to bring them into "the zone". I have to perform rituals in order to get the best shots out of my lever machines, too. But with the BDB and saturated brew group machines, there is a lot less ritual involved in getting the exact temperature you want. I know that a lot of home roasters like "lab grade" temperature stability for determining temperatures that work best for a new roast.

-Peter

Just to clarify something, isn't your point about "temp surfing" with an E61 only true for non-Dual Boiler machines?

Good question. I can't say for sure. I can only offer anecdotes. At least in the so called "third wave" espresso joints we talk about here at H-B, I've never (ever) seen a commercial E61 used as the primary puller. And I travel for a living... Every week... To big cities. I don't know if DB PID E61's are avoided for performance reasons or the coolness factor of Synesso, Van der Westen, and La Marzocco. Maybe a little of both?

I do know that other non-E61 DB PIDs have an "offset temperature" setting, whereby the PID sets only say the boiler temperature, and that is not necessarily the group or shot temperature, so the user sets the offset to compensate. You do not do this with the BDB, and I don't know why you would do it with a saturated group machine either.

And finally, (perhaps through my own lack of searching?) I've never come across reports of rock star grade Scace results on E61 DB PIDs, like I have for the BDB and the the saturated brew group machines it performs with, (even slightly betters, in some cases). Doesn't mean that data isn't out there... Just that I haven't heard it being raved about.

I realize that E61 DB PIDs have been a red hot segment over the last five years or so, so nothing would surprise me if they hadn't been developed very well indeed. But a bit over six years ago when I bought my BDB, it had already Scaced out with the GS/3, and E61 DB PIDs were in their infancy.

I knew the BDB would be killer in terms of temp performance, but I wasn't sure how well it would last and be repairable. There were an awful lot of naysayers, and I had risen to the top of my profession, so I always told myself, "when it breaks, I'll get my GS/3". But so far over six years in, it's only ever needed routine maintenance: o-rings, a solenoid, a steam valve, all easily done DIY, and predictable because that's about what everybody else's BDB has needed over the same period.

ETA: It's reports like this Eric's E61 Thermometer + Profitec Pro 700 about PID'ind and dual PID'ing ancient designs like the E61 that would cause some measure of concern to me. The thermosiphon in the E61, which was a great design in it's day, seems like it might not play well with a PID... IOW, one might be better off with a clean sheet group design that was designed from the outset to use PID... like the BDB.

-Peter