Blind tasting espresso machines in the cup - Page 2

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Marcelnl

Postby Marcelnl » Jan 23, 2019, 10:57 am

I'd rather say that the 'observed' benefits in placebo are mostly not real, same problem as with taste affected by different shapes and textures of the drinking vessel.

The more subjective the symptoms the more prone to placebo effect they seem, see following example (selected something coffee related to stay on topic ;-)
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF02801974

A likely better test between taste differences between machines would be to have a group of people not knowing what is tested describe tasting notes for several coffees and then statistically compare those notes and the different domains within the score and see if there are machine related differences.
LMWDP #483

CwD

Postby CwD » Jan 23, 2019, 6:08 pm

Blind testing machines is effectively impossible. If you wanted to compare a DE1 and an e61, you need somebody absolutely amazing at using the DE1 and somebody absolutely amazing at using the e61. You can't just have someone grab a machine (or both machines) they're not in practice with and expect shots at the quality ceiling. And then you have different shot styles, so it can't be evenly compared. And fixing on one shot style is missing the point of a more capable machine that can do things other machines just straight can't. Measurement is ultimately a better means of comparison.

There's also the issue of the coffees used. If someone is using poorly roasted coffee where it isn't desirable to push everything out of it, of course pushing more out of it is bad. That's on the roaster, not the machine.

Ric858

Postby Ric858 » replying to CwD » Jan 23, 2019, 7:02 pm

Surely there are people who have plenty of experience on various types of machines that have pulled quality shots from both the e61 & saturated groups. I'd be willing to bet we've got quite a few on this here forum, in fact. I'd be very interested to hear from some of our members who have gone from e61 machines to pressure profiled saturated groups. Are there notable improvements in flavor?
"Coffee is the lifeblood that fuels the dreams of champions."

CwD

Postby CwD » Jan 23, 2019, 7:13 pm

Any with exactly zero bias to not have risk of subconsciously and unintentionally self sabotaging on one machine for desired results? Both machines need to be operated by someone very invested in the machine they're operating. And it still leaves out style. Fixing style provides results that are entirely useless, e61 mode on a DE1 should give similar results, but e61 (nor most of those fancy but lacking in substance "pressure profiling saturated groups", it's mostly DE and manual levers there) can't pull bloomed espresso to compare. But allowing style changes makes it not comparing like things and brings in style preference.

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another_jim
Team HB

Postby another_jim » Jan 23, 2019, 7:57 pm

I've been in plenty of of machine "throw downs;" we do them quite often at our get togethers. The owners of different machines try their hand at different coffees and different styles of shots. The tasting isn't blind, but the idea is to find the cases where one machine can make a good shot and the other can't. Commercial levers and other profiling machines can occasionally do finicky coffees that others can't, but mostly, if you have enough tuning time and good grinders, most machines will do well with most coffees.

The big difference is how easy and how fun the different machines are when there's something challenging, rather than them eventually succeeding. This is why I prefer causal and workable machines to big, shiny MacGuffins
Jim Schulman

Ric858

Postby Ric858 » Jan 23, 2019, 8:44 pm

CwD wrote:Any with exactly zero bias to not have risk of subconsciously and unintentionally self sabotaging on one machine for desired results? Both machines need to be operated by someone very invested in the machine they're operating. And it still leaves out style. Fixing style provides results that are entirely useless, e61 mode on a DE1 should give similar results, but e61 (nor most of those fancy but lacking in substance "pressure profiling saturated groups", it's mostly DE and manual levers there) can't pull bloomed espresso to compare. But allowing style changes makes it not comparing like things and brings in style preference.


Bias? Sure. Self sabotaging? That's a stretch. Everyday I see insightful analysis and opinions posted throughout this forum. There's value in insights based on experience. Even if they're not scientific studies.

With that said, e61's vs saturated groups... I'd love to hear about differences and similarities from those of you who've used both.
"Coffee is the lifeblood that fuels the dreams of champions."

ds

Postby ds » Jan 23, 2019, 8:51 pm

Marcelnl wrote:I'd rather say that the 'observed' benefits in placebo are mostly not real, same problem as with taste affected by different shapes and textures of the drinking vessel.

The more subjective the symptoms the more prone to placebo effect they seem, see following example (selected something coffee related to stay on topic ;-)


Everything about tasting coffee is subjective. Have you ever gave someone espresso to taste saying you can taste blueberries yet other person can't? Have multiple people tasting exact same shot reported different flavors and often very different? Taste is subjective.

Flitzgordon

Postby Flitzgordon » Jan 24, 2019, 4:49 am

There are too many variables that can influence the taste of the espresso.

I tend to avoid looking at the extraction process, on the visual appearance of the espresso and taste my espressos blind. This eliminates the biasness from the visual aspect.

Using single origins, blends, dark and light roasts.
Between the E61 and saturated groupheads, I can't detect much differences.
Between the E61 and a Strada(at default setting) , I tend to prefer shots from the strada as the notes appear richer.
Between Strada and a spring piston like the Strega, they are fairly similar.
Between a heat exchanger and a double boiler, yes there's a difference and my preference goes to the heat exchangers.

Base on my preference in tastes, it drew me to simpler machines that cost far less and last longer with lesser problems so why not.

Maybe it's just me but this is the conclusion I had with my partner.