Barksdale 0.05bar pressurestat 1st look - Page 3

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JonR10

#21: Post by JonR10 »

Here's what they have for me on the Parker website after performing a search:



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> Home > RRA - FEMALE NPT TO MALE BSPP ADAPTER View By Image

RRA - FEMALE NPT TO MALE BSPP ADAPTER



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Sweet - eh?

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JonR10

#22: Post by JonR10 »

JonR10 wrote:
TerryZ was uncharacteristically unhelpful on the phone today. <snip> He did say if I order one and put in the notes that I need the adapter for my Wega that they would include the fitting for free.
OK, I apologize for this remark. I had called Terry at 5 PM his time (7 PM my time), he was at the end of his day, his server was down and he couldn't do anything to help me. I also was at the end of my day (still at work at 7 PM) and tired and frustrated about this whole deal.

Terry called me back today and was back to his usual helpful self. We talked about the options and pros/cons and I decided to go with the Sirai because it will probably last ALOT longer than these other devices and I have plenty of space.

The Barksdale device in my machine seems destined to fail and I need a more permanent solution. The Barksdale is sitting in a very hot environment (no boiler insulation), it's at the limit of it's adjustment, it's regulating water above it's rated temperature, and it has already drifted to and fro on the setting (probably due to heat exposure), the thumbwheel already has a couple of broken spokes because it's so tight and so hot that I need to use a Channel Locks pliers to adjust it.

So anyway - thanks to TerryZ I have a new Sirai AND the correct adapter fitting on the way.






Now, if anyone can find me a source for MALE BSPP adapters I would love to know about it.

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Compass Coffee (original poster)
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#23: Post by Compass Coffee (original poster) »

JonR10 wrote: The Barksdale device in my machine seems destined to fail and I need a more permanent solution. The Barksdale is sitting in a very hot environment (no boiler insulation), it's at the limit of it's adjustment, it's regulating water above it's rated temperature, and it has already drifted to and fro on the setting (probably due to heat exposure), the thumbwheel already has a couple of broken spokes because it's so tight and so hot that I need to use a Channel Locks pliers to adjust it.
Interesting we've had such opposite experiences with the Barksdale. While mine's only been installed just shy of two weeks it's stayed rock solid on 1.0-1.05bar heater deadband since I first set it. Just checked it again. However I have not explored it's lowest range, simply brought it down from the ~1.2bar it was at when I got it to the 1.0bar I wanted. FWIW did not need anything but fingers to adjust it down that far. Actually I initially took it to 0.95bar then brought it back up to 1.0 bottom of band. By it's specs of 10-24PSI should go down to ~0.7bar and up to ~1.65bar but like I said I didn't test its full rated range. Not sure what you meant by "regulating water above its rated temperature", referring to high ambient?
Mike McGinness, Head Bean (Owner/Roast Master)
http://www.CompassCoffeeRoasting.com

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JonR10

#24: Post by JonR10 »

Compass Coffee wrote:However I have not explored it's lowest range, simply brought it down from the ~1.2bar it was at when I got it to the 1.0bar I wanted. FWIW did not need anything but fingers to adjust it down that far. Actually I initially took it to 0.95bar then brought it back up to 1.0 bottom of band. By it's specs of 10-24PSI should go down to ~0.7bar and up to ~1.65bar but like I said I didn't test it's full rated range.
Interesting! Mine came set at 0.5 bar and I had to adjust to the end of the thumbwheel travel to get ~1 bar (1.05 - 1.10). It drifted down, and then I reset, and then it drifted up, and then I wrapped it in a pot holder and reset again.

Compass Coffee wrote:Not sure what you meant by "regulating water above it's rated temperature", referring to high ambient?
I was indicating that the working fluid is probably higher than the rated temperature in my application. I used to have a spec sheet and I remember that the fluid temperature of the regulated fluid should not exceed (some number less than 100 C )

Java Man

#25: Post by Java Man »

JonR10 wrote: So anyway - thanks to TerryZ I have a new Sirai AND the correct adapter fitting on the way.
I had a Sirai in a previous machine (a La Cimbali M27) and found it quite noisy. But at this point, I'd accept noise for durability and reduced risk of "overpressure events". Please post your impressions of the Sirai and the adapter you used -- I'm following close behind you. Does this one have a single set of contacts, or is it the one with two or three sets?

Cheers,

Rick
Java Man
A.K.A. Espressopithecus

Ken Fox

#26: Post by Ken Fox »

JonR10 wrote:
OK, I apologize for this remark. I had called Terry at 5 PM his time (7 PM my time), he was at the end of his day, his server was down and he couldn't do anything to help me. I also was at the end of my day (still at work at 7 PM) and tired and frustrated about this whole deal.

Terry called me back today and was back to his usual helpful self. We talked about the options and pros/cons and I decided to go with the Sirai because it will probably last ALOT longer than these other devices and I have plenty of space.

The Barksdale device in my machine seems destined to fail and I need a more permanent solution. The Barksdale is sitting in a very hot environment (no boiler insulation), it's at the limit of it's adjustment, it's regulating water above it's rated temperature, and it has already drifted to and fro on the setting (probably due to heat exposure), the thumbwheel already has a couple of broken spokes because it's so tight and so hot that I need to use a Channel Locks pliers to adjust it.

So anyway - thanks to TerryZ I have a new Sirai AND the correct adapter fitting on the way.






Now, if anyone can find me a source for MALE BSPP adapters I would love to know about it.
Sirai's are bulletproof, and if you get the ones with 3 contacts they'll last as long as your machine.

I have no personal experience with the Barksdale, however, it appears from all that I have heard to be a small volume custom made product or custom modification of another product, and as such will have all the disadvantages of something that has not withstood the rigorous testing of an "off the shelf" standard machine part. Even if they don't test the off the shelf parts much before they release them into the channel, they end up being used so much that any flaws become apparent and if they are made to a high standard (as is the Sirai, not true of the mater or the CEME) they will be modified if need be down the line to ensure that what you are getting is at least decent.

You can arguably make the same statement about PIDs; the controllers, at least those used commonly in industry like the Fuji and some others, and SSRs, which are likewise ubiquitous, have stood the test of time in many applications and are regarded by people who use them in critical applications to be very reliable. If one reads the coffee website forums and alt.coffee, one does not commonly see threads entitled "my Fuji bit the dust," or "my SSR failed in the 'on' position." The industrial applications in which these common-as-dirt parts are used, if anything, stress them more than we mere mortals do in our espresso machines.

So, in my opinion at least, a PID installation is probably going to be as bulletproof as anything else you might put into an espresso machine for temperature control. It will also offer something that other options do not; the ability to quickly change shot temperatures without developing a complicated flushing routine, on a heat exchanger. As an example, with the SO Harrar Horse I've been using lately, I typically set the boiler at 232.5F when I anticipate making a milk drink and at 230.5 when I'm making a straight shot. I can do this with very little advance planning. 230.5F will give me a shot of about 199F, and 232.5F a little higher. The main difference is that I can froth milk easily at 232.5F and can't do so at 230.5F BUT, 230.5F gives me a more reliable sub-200F degree shot, which matters more, in my opinion at least, for straight shots. So, I can do the switchover that is near and dear to the hearts of most home baristas, e.g. between milk drinks and straight shots with the same beans, and I can do it painlessly.

Trying to do this with a pstat, any pstat, will involve (at minimum) removing a machine side panel, getting out a screwdriver, and futzing around for several minutes. This is to say you won't do it, so you will be "stuck" with whatever setting you decide upon for the pstat as an acceptable compromise.

ken
What, me worry?

Alfred E. Neuman, 1955

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HB
Admin

#27: Post by HB »

Ken Fox wrote:So, in my opinion at least, a PID installation is probably going to be as bulletproof as anything else you might put into an espresso machine for temperature control. It will also offer something that other options do not; the ability to quickly change shot temperatures without developing a complicated flushing routine, on a heat exchanger.
Has anyone reproduced your PID results on a semi-commercial E61 like Jon's? I don't doubt your findings for the Cimbali Junior, but it has a unique group design that favors boiler-centric temperature control. My assumption is that the E61's smaller HX (110ml, IIRC) and thermosyphon design may not deliver the same results with a fixed flush amount and a hyper-precise low boiler temperature setting.

Too bad there's no thermosyphon flow restrictor on semi-commercial E61s like on the Faema E61 Legend (below). While it wouldn't have PID-like precision, it would allow you to tweak the temperature while keeping a fixed flush amount.

Image
From Ken Nye's Faema E61 Legend
Dan Kehn

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luca
Team HB

#28: Post by luca »

HB wrote:Too bad there's no thermosyphon flow restrictor on semi-commercial E61s like on the Faema E61 Legend (below). While it wouldn't have PID-like precision, it would allow you to tweak the temperature while keeping a fixed flush amount.
I wonder if there's a variable restrictor out there somewhere that could be retro-fitted? I think that there's a brasilia machine (or maybe several!) that has them ... Michael?

Cheers,

Luca

Ken Fox

#29: Post by Ken Fox »

HB wrote:Has anyone reproduced your PID results on a semi-commercial E61 like Jon's? I don't doubt your findings for the Cimbali Junior, but it has a unique group design that favors boiler-centric temperature control. My assumption is that the E61's smaller HX (110ml, IIRC) and thermosyphon design may not deliver the same results with a fixed flush amount and a hyper-precise low boiler temperature setting.

Too bad there's no thermosyphon flow restrictor on semi-commercial E61s like on the Faema E61 Legend (below). While it wouldn't have PID-like precision, it would allow you to tweak the temperature while keeping a fixed flush amount.
Firstly, I'm unaware of anyone else PIDing a different HX machine and trying to replicate my findings; if this has happened, either they haven't posted it or I've not read the post. But I don't think that precisely replicating my results is necessary to make the argument I made for PIDing a machine as a nearly bulletproof method of shot temperature control which is easily adjustable on the fly.

Without a doubt, every HX machine will show an impact on shot temperatures when the boiler temperature is changed; otherwise, there would be no reason for even having adjustable pressurestats, the mfrs. would simply put in some sort of temperature switch that allowed full throttle frothing and that would be that. Instead, pressurestats are adjustable and by adjusting them one is able to either set the boiler temperature to cycle at a high level for better frothing and at a lower level for more controllable or consistent shot temps in a setting where proportionately little frothing is done. What other possible explanation could there be for the fact that in Italy, where straight shots predominate, one sees low pstat settings on machines, and in N. America, where sacred cow juice is worshipped, one finds higher pstat settings? I've never seen a post or article to this effect, but it certainly is my impression that lower pstat settings produce more temperature stability in a setting of high volume, (mostly) straight shot production. This would certainly be the situation in a lot Italian bars, and if it were not true (e.g. the temperature profiles dropped with each shot to some low level) then I think they'd set pstats much higher in Italy. One thing that I HAVE seen in my testing is that with higher boiler temps, what you would want if you frothed constantly, and anything other than a huge flush, one gets very high first shot temps. Even Italian bars have their slow periods and no doubt they are aware of this potential for excessively hot first shots, hence the lower pstat settings.

I'm reasonably certain that most knowledgeable home baristas, given an easy way to do this, would adjust their pstats during the day to accommodate the type of drinks they were going to make at any particular time, up for milk drinks and down for straight shots (and maybe macchiatos, where little milk is to be frothed).

So, even if one can't get as tight temperature control as I've been able to demonstrate on my machines, with a different HX machine, I still think the easy adjustability of boiler temperature is a plus and something many people would use, given the chance. Since espresso machine PID installations appear to be much more reliable than the current crop of pstats (Maters and CEMEs), and that after a few years would actually become cheaper since they don't need to be replaced like the disposable pstats, I think you can make some very strong arguments in favor of PID installation EVEN IF relatively tight temperature control is unobtainable on a given espresso machine design.

Best,

ken
What, me worry?

Alfred E. Neuman, 1955

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HB
Admin

#30: Post by HB »

Ken Fox wrote:Instead, pressurestats are adjustable and by adjusting them one is able to either set the boiler temperature to cycle at a high level for better frothing and at a lower level for more controllable or consistent shot temps in a setting where proportionately little frothing is done...

So, even if one can't get as tight temperature control as I've been able to demonstrate on my machines, with a different HX machine, I still think the easy adjustability of boiler temperature is a plus and something many people would use, given the chance.
Given the inexpensive PIDs on the market, I agree that a PID / SSR combo is a viable alternative to a traditional pressurestat. And it may be that the results of your machine's unique group design and PID-controlled steam boiler will apply to machine's like Jon's, but I'm skeptical, especially after having installed Eric's TC adapter (for those who haven't heard about it, see Monitoring Brew Temperature - E61 & Silvia). Temperature surfing by altering the flush amount on the Junior simply doesn't work, but it works very well on the smaller HX machines. I bought an inexpensive PID from Eric. It includes a 1A SSR that could control the grouphead solenoid / pump on La Valentina to automate the flush with more precision than most have patience for by the "water dance" method or looking at a thermocouple readout. Now the minor problem of a free weekend to install it...
Dan Kehn