About line pressure preinfusion - Page 2

Need help with equipment usage or want to share your latest discovery?
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Jake_G
Posts: 129
Joined: November 9th, 2017

Postby Jake_G » Feb 13, 2018, 12:45 am

9coffee wrote:Thank you for your kind instruction!
Wow, you must know everything!



I agree with you.
Actually, I'm pulling shot with swinging adjustment of the pump pressure slowly by my hand now like slow pre-infusion.
I can pull shot better than before but I haven't have great effect regarding flavor.
I'm readjusting roasting and grind on your advice.
If there is another opportunity, please offer your support again!

by Q


You're too kind :)

The one thing I am keenly aware of is how little I actually know. This site and folks like Eric have been instrumental in helping me improve what matters most to me, which is what's in the cup.

The biggest suggestion I have for you would be to experiment with brew temperatures to ensure you are in the sweet spot of your roast of choice and follow Espresso 101: How to Adjust Dose and Grind Setting by Taste. It's an iterative process of figuring out your target brew ratio after that. I'm still in the middle of that process, and I think that part of the joy of espresso for me is that there are so many variables that I can pretty much guarantee my journey will never truly be complete.

erics wrote:The delay-on-make relay will allow you to energize the appropriate brew solenoid and use line pressure pre-infusion for an adjustable X seconds. The pump will then start and the brew process continues. To the extent that this improves anything is debatable, leaning towards a "yes it does".


While I enjoy the manual control of the pump kill switch I added to my machine since I prefer "complete" preinfusion (gunshot wound bleed-through of the entire basket before engaging the pump), Eric's suggestion is by far the simplest way to achieve consistent time and pressure-based preinfusion. It's dead simple and proven to be effective.

Cheers!

- Jake

9coffee
Posts: 22
Joined: September 25th, 2017

Postby 9coffee » Feb 14, 2018, 6:16 am

erics wrote:Why not simply install what's called a "delay-on-make" relay in line with the power to the pump? Adjust your pressure regulator such that it provides 2.0 to 3.0 bar input to the FB80.

The Ace Shurflo certainly has a good reputation but the dollar differential here is about 10X.

The delay-on-make relay will allow you to energize the appropriate brew solenoid and use line pressure pre-infusion for an adjustable X seconds. The pump will then start and the brew process continues. To the extent that this improves anything is debatable, leaning towards a "yes, it does".


Thank Eric for useful information!
I'm interested in your suggestion.
This is the first (time) I've heard of the Ace Shurflo.
In the concrete, could you tell me which model it is?
Do I install it between the espresso machine and the rotary pump?

Ellejaycafe
Posts: 623
Joined: September 21st, 2015

Postby Ellejaycafe » Feb 14, 2018, 8:59 am

erics wrote:Why not simply install what's called a "delay-on-make" relay in line with the power to the pump? Adjust your pressure regulator such that it provides 2.0 to 3.0 bar input to the FB80.

The Ace Shurflo certainly has a good reputation but the dollar differential here is about 10X.

The delay-on-make relay will allow you to energize the appropriate brew solenoid and use line pressure pre-infusion for an adjustable X seconds. The pump will then start and the brew process continues. To the extent that this improves anything is debatable, leaning towards a "yes, it does".


This is exactly how my Aurelia works. It's non adjustable, but it works perfect everytime. The simple relay gives me line pressure preinfusion and it slowly ramps up to my set pressure..... the gicleur peovides for a slow ramp up. Dead simple and effective.
LMWDP #544

9coffee
Posts: 22
Joined: September 25th, 2017

Postby 9coffee » Feb 14, 2018, 10:20 am

Jake_G wrote:You're too kind :)

The one thing I am keenly aware of is how little I actually know. This site and folks like Eric have been instrumental in helping me improve what matters most to me, which is what's in the cup.

The biggest suggestion I have for you would be to experiment with brew temperatures to ensure you are in the sweet spot of your roast of choice and follow Espresso 101: How to Adjust Dose and Grind Setting by Taste. It's an iterative process of figuring out your target brew ratio after that. I'm still in the middle of that process, and I think that part of the joy of espresso for me is that there are so many variables that I can pretty much guarantee my journey will never truly be complete.



While I enjoy the manual control of the pump kill switch I added to my machine since I prefer "complete" preinfusion (gunshot wound bleed-through of the entire basket before engaging the pump), Eric's suggestion is by far the simplest way to achieve consistent time and pressure-based preinfusion. It's dead simple and proven to be effective.

Cheers!

- Jake


I've just saw this setting before your advice.
It's of high interest.
I use it as a reference for making my espresso recipe.
I have made up my mind to work harder by your favor!

9coffee
Posts: 22
Joined: September 25th, 2017

Postby 9coffee » Feb 14, 2018, 10:27 am

Ellejaycafe wrote:This is exactly how my Aurelia works. It's non adjustable, but it works perfect everytime. The simple relay gives me line pressure preinfusion and it slowly ramps up to my set pressure..... the gicleur peovides for a slow ramp up. Dead simple and effective.


Thank you for your adivice.
If you don't mind, Could you tell me that which model of Shurflo it is?
I'd like to know how to install it.

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Jake_G
Posts: 129
Joined: November 9th, 2017

Postby Jake_G » Feb 14, 2018, 11:27 am

I suggest you review this link for a simple "make on delay" relay installation into a commercial machine.
How to pre-infuse / reduce flow on a Wega Airy Commercial [SOLVED]

Within that is a link to My long and rambling path to preinfusion/pressure profiling. It's a long read, but some folks have found it enjoyable and it contains a fair bit of dialogue with multiple perspectives on some of the concepts you're mulling over right now.

There is also a link to My long and rambling build to preinfusion/pressure profiling that highlights how I added a switch to preinfuse as long as I like on my Rancilio S20 MIDI CD.

Regarding ACE ShureShot:
ACE is a company out of Aus that specializes in espresso machine shot timers with integrated control for preinfusion, pump and solenoid control, etc... I suggest you browse their website to familiarize yourself with their offerings. You're machine is the technical equivalent of a Linea EE from the standpoint of what ACE has to offer off the shelf, but they have a strong reputation of excellent customer support and would gladly point you in the right direction if one of their kits was right for you.

What Eric was suggesting was to purchase a cheap relay and install between the switch and pump as Curtis did in the first link above. This not in the slightest to discredit ACE, but rather to point out that in your introduction to line pressure preinfusion, it likely makes sense to install the cheap, reliable and proven method first, and then make up your mind if the investment of a high-tech solution used in many a commercial espresso shop is right for you.

Ellejaycafe wrote:This is exactly how my Aurelia works. It's non adjustable, but it works perfect everytime. The simple relay gives me line pressure preinfusion and it slowly ramps up to my set pressure..... the gicleur peovides for a slow ramp up. Dead simple and effective.

This is in reference to a factory NS Aurelia. Just an example of how a time-delay relay works to accomplish a set time of line pressure before engaging the pump. There is no ACE ShureShot product involved with a factory Aurelia, though I'm sure one could be installed if one wished to.

Cheers!

- Jacob

Ellejaycafe
Posts: 623
Joined: September 21st, 2015

Postby Ellejaycafe » Feb 14, 2018, 11:39 am

Jake_G wrote:

This is in reference to a factory NS Aurelia. Just an example of how a time-delay relay works to accomplish a set time of line pressure before engaging the pump. There is no ACE ShureShot product involved with a factory Aurelia, though I'm sure one could be installed if one wished to.

Cheers!

- Jacob


I didn't make it clear but my Aurelia is a stock Aurelia. I didn't mean to make it sound like mine was modded in anyway. Just another reference for how the relay line pressure preinfusion works on my machine. I'm sure the OP could look up how the Aurelia is wired and work from there to mod his machine.

I had a brief conversation with Sean about using a sureshot on the Aurelia and it seemed pointless and a lot of work. I am rebuilding a 2 group ECM (back when they made commercial machines, pretty machine actually) and I plan on using the sureshot on that machine where there is no preinfusion. I'll document the rebuild in another thread.
LMWDP #544

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erics
Posts: 6079
Joined: August 9th, 2005

Postby erics » Feb 14, 2018, 1:34 pm

For Taro -

A pic of your machine and, in particular, the electrical connections at the pump's motor would be most helpful. To accomplish this mod in a fully (and easily) reversible fashion would require some spare connectors. Their availability could be troublesome.

For Jake -

Beautiful write-up and great links. The temperature sensor in your Taylor 3516 is either a 50k ohm or 100k ohm negative temperature coefficient (NTC) thermistor. Taylor switched during the years if I remember correctly. McMaster-Carr sells vented metric SS allen head screws which might save you some time in the future.
Skål,

Eric S.
http://users.rcn.com/erics/
E-mail: erics at erols dot com

9coffee
Posts: 22
Joined: September 25th, 2017

Postby 9coffee » Feb 16, 2018, 11:05 am

Jake_G wrote:I suggest you review this link for a simple "make on delay" relay installation into a commercial machine.
How to pre-infuse / reduce flow on a Wega Airy Commercial [SOLVED]

Within that is a link to My long and rambling path to preinfusion/pressure profiling. It's a long read, but some folks have found it enjoyable and it contains a fair bit of dialogue with multiple perspectives on some of the concepts you're mulling over right now.

There is also a link to My long and rambling build to preinfusion/pressure profiling that highlights how I added a switch to preinfuse as long as I like on my Rancilio S20 MIDI CD.

Regarding ACE ShureShot:
ACE is a company out of Aus that specializes in espresso machine shot timers with integrated control for preinfusion, pump and solenoid control, etc... I suggest you browse their website to familiarize yourself with their offerings. You're machine is the technical equivalent of a Linea EE from the standpoint of what ACE has to offer off the shelf, but they have a strong reputation of excellent customer support and would gladly point you in the right direction if one of their kits was right for you.

What Eric was suggesting was to purchase a cheap relay and install between the switch and pump as Curtis did in the first link above. This not in the slightest to discredit ACE, but rather to point out that in your introduction to line pressure preinfusion, it likely makes sense to install the cheap, reliable and proven method first, and then make up your mind if the investment of a high-tech solution used in many a commercial espresso shop is right for you.


This is in reference to a factory NS Aurelia. Just an example of how a time-delay relay works to accomplish a set time of line pressure before engaging the pump. There is no ACE ShureShot product involved with a factory Aurelia, though I'm sure one could be installed if one wished to.

Cheers!

- Jacob


For sure, I refer to your articles.
I'm surprised that there is really a lot to learn about pre-infuision.
As you said, I think It's better to install ACE system.
Thank your for every thing, Jacob!

9coffee
Posts: 22
Joined: September 25th, 2017

Postby 9coffee » Feb 16, 2018, 11:07 am

[quote="erics"]For Taro -

A pic of your machine and, in particular, the electrical connections at the pump's motor would be most helpful. To accomplish this mod in a fully (and easily) reversible fashion would require some spare connectors. Their availability could be troublesome.

Hi Eric,
I appreciate your advice!

 
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