Sweet, rich, big bodied, low acid coffees for espresso

Discuss flavors, brew temperatures, blending, and cupping notes.
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luca
Team HB

#1: Post by luca »

Personally, I like very aromatic and clean coffees, and I don't mind high acidity and couldn't care less about body. I accept that this puts me in the minority, and there are many people who very much hate high acidity and want big body, and that's a perfectly legitimate choice. To my mind, it's like choosing between wine or beer - lovers of one might enjoy both, but are probably more likely to not like the other, but nobody would be dismissive of either category of drink as a whole. But, somehow, when it comes the discussion in terms of coffee, discussions of coffees always seem to veer off into people who like one style or the other chiming in in a discussion of the coffee of the type that they don't like to say that the style is wrong and the emperor has no clothes. Most often, what seems to happen is that someone is excited about some aromatic light roast, half the time being one with some whack processing applied to it (and, for the record, often being something that I personally think is gross even though I like light roasts) but then it quickly degenerates into the same cries of "third wave orange juice", "coffee should taste like coffee", etc, rather than a discussion of the actual merits of the coffee.

I just want people to end up with the coffee of the style that they want, and not to have nasty surprises.

So here's my question. Why isn't there actually more discussion of single origin coffees here that are actually what people who want a "classic cup" (sorry, I need some sort of shorthand description; y'all know what I mean) want?

I just scrolled through ten pages of the coffee discussion section and observed two things. First of all, the number of threads with the name of the coffee in the title is amazingly low and, second, not one thread in ten pages is a discussion of a Brazil or even an El Salvador single origin coffee.

Yes, I know that it's risky to generalise and that coffee producers all around the world are producing all sorts of cups not typical for their region. But it's fair to say that it isn't hard to stumble across a cup from Brazil that is amazingly sweet, low in acid, has huge body and makes absolutely fantastic classic cup espresso.

So where is all the discussion on this site helping classic cup lovers find them?

Blends

Is it possible that most classic cup people go for blends rather than single origin coffees? Many espresso blends tend to have Brazils as a component. My issue with this is that Brazillian and Ethiopian coffees tend to require a coarser grind for me than central american, african and asian coffees, and I've usually found that when they are blended, the blend does indeed taste worse than it would if you grind the components separately at their optimum espresso grind size and combine the two grind sizes in the portafilter to make a shot. Brazillian coffee often blends well with ethiopian coffees at the same grind setting, but those are often natural processed. Whilst that makes a perfectly delicious blend if you're into that style, I do often read many classic cup enthusiasts that don't like overly much fruit in the cup, so I'd expect that there's a large demand for espresso coffee that doesn't have that character.

Scoring

Brazillian coffees tend to score lower on SCA and COE score sheets. On the SCA sheet, you score sweetness on a yes/no basis, so if it does seem unusually sweet, a coffee has little opportunity to score up from that, whilst coffees with low acid don't tend to score high in that category. None of this means that they are any the less delicious or satisfying in espresso; it just means that if you blindly follow scores, you get what you deserve and miss out on coffee you might enjoy.

Roast

I think there is a lot of misinformation about roast levels. People think that dark roasts can reduce acidity (usually true, though if it's fast and dark it might still be acidic) and that they can "increase sweetness" (I've never experienced this) and that they have heavier body (probably true, to a point, after which body drops off). But I think what most people would probably agree on is that darker roasts generally create their own roast-derived flavours and mute other flavours like fruits and florals. Classic cup lovers are quick to criticise the acidity in light roasts, but bury their heads in the sand about the bitterness of dark roasts. Classic cup lovers seldom talk about sweetness, but, like all of us, clearly do seem to prefer high sweetness.

I've long thought that classic cup lovers are often getting shortchanged on some coffees as follows: Roasters seem to want to bring the latest and greatest to their customers, so they will buy a high scoring, expensive or prestigious coffee. That coffee will have high acidity and fruit or floral flavours. They roast it dark or long to mute the acidity, add roast flavours and replace the fruits and florals with roast flavours. Why? Why not find green coffees that are more inherently likely to deliver what the customers want to start off with? Then you don't have to roast them as dark, so you'll end up with a sweeter and less bitter result.

Coffees

I'm not especially interested in the classic cup profile, so I don't spend money tracking these coffees down, but I have over the last few years had some nice natural mundo novo from Bom Jesus and a few coffees I'm sure people would like from Santuario Sul.

There is a plethora of discussion of equipment on this site for classic cup lovers, which pales into insignificance in effect on the cup compared with the actual coffee you are feeding your machines, so it'd be nice to see a bit more discussion of that. I have bought and used many different grinders and machines, and I can tell you that most people are getting worse results than they would like due to paying less attention to the coffee that they are using that the agonising that went into choosing between a handful of espresso machines and grinders at the same price point. If people put one tenth of the effort into selecting their coffees than they did into selecting their equipment, they would probably get a much better result.
LMWDP #034 | 2011: Q Exam, WBrC #3, Aus Cup Tasting #1 | Insta: @lucacoffeenotes
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CarefreeBuzzBuzz

#2: Post by CarefreeBuzzBuzz »

See any greens at Hacea or Showroom that you think could fit the bill? I would consider them.
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Bloomit-19

#3: Post by Bloomit-19 »

Passenger (Lancaster, PA, USA) has a year-round Brazil Daterra offering that nicely fits the bill here. No flavors of roast/ash/smoke, very low acidity, clean and sweet.

I believe their "necessary coffee" brand has more developed offerings in a similar line but have not tried those personally.

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Jeff
Team HB

#4: Post by Jeff »

Similarly, George Howell's Daterra and Alchemy blend impressed me as enjoyable. Low on acidity, classic flavor profile, seemingly more from the greens than from the roast.

I completely agree with "If people put one tenth of the effort into selecting their coffees than they did into selecting their equipment, they would probably get a much better result." A $3,000 grinder ain't gonna fix a generic, $12 a pound blend.

Maybe a way to start understanding what is in the coffee, independent of espresso prep, is to try it as a small pour-over, French press, or cupping. For me, if I don't like it at 12:200, I'm almost certainly not going to like it concentrated as espresso.

jpender

#5: Post by jpender »

There is a lot of coffee out there that I don't like. I have thrown away many bags, some very recently. I can't say if it's really "bad" or just not to my taste. As far as I'm concerned it's effectively the same thing.

Definitely worth the time to find what sings for you.

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luca (original poster)
Team HB

#6: Post by luca (original poster) »

CarefreeBuzzBuzz wrote:See any greens at Hacea or Showroom that you think could fit the bill? I would consider them.
Don't really know, and remember I don't buy these coffees, so I'm not good at it. Maybe ask Andrew Barnett if you ever go to Linea Caffe. They both have only one Brazil each; one looks like a very fruity fermented one; the other looks like a pretty plain one and specifically says that it is very low in acid. No doubt there are many Brazil coffees that won't be all that impressive, so if you buy one that's bad, don't take it as an indictment of all of them.
Bloomit-19 wrote:Passenger (Lancaster, PA, USA) has a year-round Brazil Daterra offering that nicely fits the bill here. No flavors of roast/ash/smoke, very low acidity, clean and sweet.
Jeff wrote:Similarly, George Howell's Daterra and Alchemy blend impressed me as enjoyable. Low on acidity, classic flavor profile, seemingly more from the greens than from the roast.
Yep, some of Daterra's coffees were absolutely what I was thinking of. I remember having a natural bourbon from them years ago that was great. In fact, I think Klaus used a blend of Daterra and a natural Ethiopian when he won WBC like 20 years ago. However, I know Daterra produce heaps of coffee and have a great range, but I don't know much about navigating the range. They have a "masterpieces" range, for example, that has a number of coffees that sort of have a classic brazil cup profile to them, are low in acid, high in body and very sweet, but also have some interesting fruit and floral flavours to them (and cost a fair bit more, too).
jpender wrote:There is a lot of coffee out there that I don't like. I have thrown away many bags, some very recently. I can't say if it's really "bad" or just not to my taste. As far as I'm concerned it's effectively the same thing.

Definitely worth the time to find what sings for you.
Yeah, for each of our own purposes, certainly we don't need to differentiate between bad and what we don't like, but when we write about coffee online, we need to be careful not to mislead others. I try to be descriptive rather than evaluative, so that people who don't like what I like can hopefully still recognise when they will like a coffee I don't like.
LMWDP #034 | 2011: Q Exam, WBrC #3, Aus Cup Tasting #1 | Insta: @lucacoffeenotes

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another_jim
Team HB

#7: Post by another_jim »

I've been roasting and blending chocolate and dried fruit espresso blends for my morning cappa and for guests for over two decades (I prefer more fruit frward straight shots, although still with some roast). Here's what I know.

Classically, you want a blend with four components: a solid DP Harar or Sidamo, a solid DP Brazil, a really high quality PNG or Lintong and a really high quality Robusta The proportions are about 10 to 20% for the Robusta, 40% for the Brazil, and the other two depnding on how much bass and treble you like. The robusta is roasted into the second crack and staled, so roast it separate and include it with the others as needed. The other three coffees can be preblended, but if possible roast the Ethiopian separately (I typically roast a good one for straight shots, and throw some into the cappa blend)

For good body and chocolate and sweetness on the Indo and Brazil, I find a roast dropped just ahead of the first pops of the second works best. YMMV depending on your taste for distillates.

The problem is finding a good Indo and Brazil. Typically, finding good SO Ethiopians that can be used in the blend is easy. Daterra, especially Daterra Blue, is mostly a safe bet. Sigri and Kimmel estates are often good, but more a 2 in 3 shot. It's best to cup through a lot of of them and chuck anthing that doesn't wow you right away. If it's a really bad year for Brazils and Indos, my blends aren't much better than a good quality Italian blend.

Sometimes, you find an SO that does body, chcolate and dried fruit (typically something like a Harar or Matari, or a really heavy bodied Sidamo) George Howell's medium roast Worka Chelbessa, despite being wet processed, fits the bill. The problem is that this is an expensive way to get a something that should be an inexpensive commodity blend.
Jim Schulman

mathof

#8: Post by mathof »

I find that Yemen Mocha Matari roasted medium-dark (Agtron 41-45) in a flat white is chocolate, earthy, spicy and sweet. I love it. Here's my source:

https://www.pennineteaandcoffee.co.uk/p ... -beans-1kg

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Sal

#9: Post by Sal »

I don't do espresso, so my standard is probably off from anyone looking for a great "traditional" shot. But for me, "sweet, rich, big-bodied, low acid coffees" is synonymous with Sumatra. Almost any G1 Mandheling double-picked or triple-picked will satisfy my comfort level. While Sumatra is almost always the staple coffee found in any "traditional" roasters, the lack of Sumatra for the offering from many light roasts and fruit-forward third-wave roasters must not be a coincidence.

Over the past few years, I have been exploring many other Southeast Asian and Oceania coffees and found that they can be extremely satisfying to me. I have never seen any mentioned here, but I have found Vietnamese Buon Me Thuot Excelsa, either as single-origin or blended with Vietnamese Culi Robusta and Dalat Bourbon to be exceptionally good for a back-palate coffee drinkers like me. A few Southeast Asian and Oceania coffees I have tried, such as Sumatra Raja Batak Peaberry and Timor even had a hint of fruitiness in the back end which I like. If "big-bodied, low-acid coffees" is the name of the game, then Philippine and Malaysia Liberica are in their own league. However, they are very hard to find in the US.

Yemen is another origin that "can" offer "sweet, rich, big-bodied, low acid coffees". I have sourced a few different Mocha and Harraz greens recently, but have not tried them yet. If they turn out to be what I expect, I will definitely order more. BTW, the classic Moca-Java blend is my favorite of all blends out there for a cup of "sweet, rich, big-bodied, low acid coffees".
I am a home-roaster, not a home-barista...

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Almico

#10: Post by Almico »

I think some people concern themselves far too much with what other people are doing with their coffee life choices.
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