Rate of coffee staling
- RapidCoffee
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Ian, thanks for your feedback. But I doubt that the rate of coffee staling has any simple relationship (exponential or otherwise) to temperature... Is there a substantive basis for this statement?cafeIKE wrote:For every 10°C change, the speed of a chemical reaction changes by a factor of 2.
Ignoring boffins with spectrographs, coffee staling and freezing is simple chemistry :Dave's [and Ken's] freezer @ -15°F is midway between, so let's say 3 weeks = 1 day.
- - Changing the temperature from +20°C to -20°C slows staling by a factor of 16. In laymans terms, two weeks in your typical refrigerator freezer equates to one day at room temperature.
- Changing the temperature from +20°C to -30°C slows staling by a factor of 32. In laymans terms, one month in your typical chest deep freeze equates to one day at room temperature.
Ken's coffee, frozen immediately after roast for 4 to 8 weeks, accumulates ~1.5 to 3 days.
John
- cafeIKE
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"Staling of coffee occurs gradually as the result of numerous chemical processes affecting the coffee at different rates. The actual amount of time in which these processes take place will depend upon the state of the coffee (whole bean or ground) and conditions of storage (amount of oxygen contact, heat, moisture, and light)." from Coffee Analysts -> Packaging.RapidCoffee wrote:But I doubt that the rate of coffee staling has any simple relationship (exponential or otherwise) to temperature... Is there a substantive basis for this statement?
If temperature did not affect coffee staling, it would be a chemical anomaly.
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- RapidCoffee (original poster)
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Sure. I didn't question whether higher temperatures accelerate staling (of course they do). I just wanted to know if there was a substantive basis for your claim that every 10C accelerates staling by a factor of two.cafeIKE wrote:If temperature did not affect coffee staling, it would be a chemical anomaly.
I assume from your response that there isn't.
John
- cafeIKE
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It's not my claim. It's basic chemistry.
Turning your argument on it's head, are you saying there are special coffee properties that cause the chemical processes of staling to ignore the laws of nature?
Ken's short term and Dave's long term freezer tests are close enough to what one would expect from the science to validate the assertion.
Turning your argument on it's head, are you saying there are special coffee properties that cause the chemical processes of staling to ignore the laws of nature?
Ken's short term and Dave's long term freezer tests are close enough to what one would expect from the science to validate the assertion.
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- RapidCoffee (original poster)
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Kindly refrain from misquoting me. I'm simply asking for substantiation of what seems to be an extraordinary claim: coffee stales at twice the rate for every 10C rise in temperature. Neither Ken nor Dave's results come anywhere close to proving this assertion. I don't buy it, but I'm willing to be convinced...cafeIKE wrote:Turning your argument on it's head, are you saying there are special coffee properties that cause the chemical processes of staling to ignore the laws of nature?
Ken's short term and Dave's long term freezer tests are close enough to what one would expect from the science to validate the assertion.
BTW, reaction rate doubling for every 10C is not a "law of nature", it's merely a rule of thumb in chemical kinetics.
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John
- AndyS
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Of course temperature affects coffee staling. I believe the point RapidCoffee is trying to make is that it's probably an oversimplification to say that coffee neatly follows the 10C rule of thumb.cafeIKE wrote:"Staling of coffee occurs gradually as the result of numerous chemical processes affecting the coffee at different rates. The actual amount of time in which these processes take place will depend upon the state of the coffee (whole bean or ground) and conditions of storage (amount of oxygen contact, heat, moisture, and light)." from Coffee Analysts -> Packaging.
If temperature did not affect coffee staling, it would be a chemical anomaly.
Here's one reason why your Coffee Analysts quote is an oversimplification: coffee staling is not only a chemical process, it's a physical process as well. As the coffee ages, CO2 and aromatic compounds gradually work their way out of the coffee and are lost into the surrounding space.
It's reasonable to assume that this diffusion rate is temperature dependent, but does it follow the same 10C rule as the chemical processes? I don't know, do you?
-AndyS
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- luca
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Hi Andy,
Thanks for succinctly stating the question!
I think that it's relevant to point out that espresso roasts run the whole gamut of resting periods; from 2 or 3 days to 2 or 3 weeks, and perhaps even longer if nitrogen flushed. So I'd be a bit surprised if there was some rule of thumb that could be applied, although I'm sure that the rest times are repeatable for any given pro roast.
Cheers,
Luca
Thanks for succinctly stating the question!
I think that it's relevant to point out that espresso roasts run the whole gamut of resting periods; from 2 or 3 days to 2 or 3 weeks, and perhaps even longer if nitrogen flushed. So I'd be a bit surprised if there was some rule of thumb that could be applied, although I'm sure that the rest times are repeatable for any given pro roast.
Cheers,
Luca
LMWDP #034 | 2011: Q Exam, WBrC #3, Aus Cup Tasting #1 | Insta: @lucacoffeenotes
- cafeIKE
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Let's try a famous AndyS thought experiment: Roast some coffee. Split the roast in to equal parts. Grind one part as for drip. Seal both halves for a couple of weeks. Would you expect a markedly different gas and aromatic volume? Yes, if there was a lot of CO2 and aromatics physically trapped in the bean released by grinding. : No, it's likely that CO2 and aromatic compounds are by-products of the staling process.AndyS wrote:Here's one reason why your Coffee Analysts quote is an oversimplification: coffee staling is not only a chemical process, it's a physical process as well. As the coffee ages, CO2 and aromatic compounds gradually work their way out of the coffee and are lost into the surrounding space.
I don't know for certain, do you? But my money is on NO.
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- AndyS
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Hmmm...further evidence of the futility of thought experiments?cafeIKE wrote:Let's try a famous AndyS thought experiment: Roast some coffee. Split the roast in to equal parts. Grind one part as for drip. Seal both halves for a couple of weeks. Would you expect a markedly different gas and aromatic volume? Yes, if there was a lot of CO2 and aromatics physically trapped in the bean released by grinding. : No, it's likely that CO2 and aromatic compounds are by-products of the staling process.
I don't know for certain, do you? But my money is on NO.
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I don't understand the point you're trying to make, but yes, there is a LOT of CO2 and a lot of aromatics physically trapped in freshly roasted beans. They eventually make their way out, whether the beans are ground or not.
It is possible that some of the CO2 released in staling is newly formed as the result of chemical reactions, but the vast majority has already been produced in the roasting process. As far as the aromatic compounds are concerned, there are hundreds of desirable aromatic compounds formed during roasting (according to Illy). In the aging process, many of these are gradually oxidized to form characteristic stale coffee aromas.Illy, Espresso Coffee, 2nd edition, p.236 wrote:Carbon dioxide formed during roasting is trapped in the cellular structure of the bean and is only released over a period of weeks following roasting, resulting in a 1.5-1.7% weight loss....The driving force at the basis of carbon dioxide and volatile release from roasted coffee is given by a diffusion flow due both to concentration and pressure gradients....The few data available about volatile partition kinetics from roasted coffee packed in air indicate that the rates of CO2 and volatiles release are of the same magnitude.
Interestingly, in looking through Illy's book to find the section quoted above, I found a paragraph that speaks directly to the effect of temperature on CO2 and volatiles release:
If it's true that the rate of chemical staling reactions doubles with every 10C, and the rate of CO2/volatiles release increases 1.5x with every 10C, then your original assertion is, again, an oversimplification:Illy, 2nd edition, p. 238 wrote:in the experimental conditions adopted, for any 10C increase, the rate of volatile release increased 1.5-fold
Ike wrote:coffee staling and freezing is simple chemistry :
- Changing the temperature from +20°C to -20°C slows staling by a factor of 16. In laymans terms, two weeks in your typical refrigerator freezer equates to one day at room temperature.
- Changing the temperature from +20°C to -30°C slows staling by a factor of 32. In laymans terms, one month in your typical chest deep freeze equates to one day at room temperature.
-AndyS
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- cafeIKE
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Ok, I should have said ...slows the chemical processes of staling by about a factor of...
mea culpa![Embarassed :oops:](./../images/smilies/icon_redface.gif)
mea culpa
![Embarassed :oops:](./../images/smilies/icon_redface.gif)
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