Prodigal Coffee Roasters - Page 8

Discuss flavors, brew temperatures, blending, and cupping notes.
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Almico
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#71: Post by Almico »

I don't think anyone is attacking Scott. In my opinion he has been a gift to coffee. He has put himself out there as an expert worthy of getting paid for his consult and buying his books. That is why this Prodigal venture is particularly interesting to me. He is now walking the walk (again), so to speak instead of just talking the talk. Not to say it is easy telling roasters and coffee shops what to do, but it is a good bit harder actually doing it on a daily basis; kind of like the difference in being a parent and a grandparent.

Scott has single-handedly taught me more about crafting good coffee than anyone or anything else. His choice to be forthcoming with the details of the process, and with all the talk about transparency in general in the coffee world, I think it is fair game to have these discussions. I for one am thoroughly enjoying this journey, watching with a keen eye and rooting for his success.

Iceman2913
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#72: Post by Iceman2913 »

Lwowiak wrote:Is all this negativity about Rao simply RDS (Rao Derangement Syndrome)?
It is obvious some will attack the bloke no matter what he does.

As to 480% markup on his coffee, who cares? Look at the markup on goods sold by Louis Vuitton and others. Profit is not a dirty word, unless of course you are a hard core socialist.

Here in Australia there are a multitude of roasters who achieve much higher markups on their products. They use commercial grade beans sourced at rock bottom prices and sell with a healthy margin. No one is attacking them, even though most of this coffee is baked, over roasted or just pure crap. If the coffee is good, Prodigal is justified to charge what they like. There is no shortage of pricey coffee here in Australia - just a shortage of roasters who can supply a well (lightly) roasted filter coffee on a consistent basis.

Currently, freight to Australia from USA and Europe is ridiculously high, yet not a peep is heard about this.

Personally, I am jealous of the green you guys have access to. I have to jump through hoops to get coffee of this calibre for my co-op. When I do manage to get a sample, if I hesitate the coffee gets snapped up by others.

Looking forward to reading people's reviews of the Geisha and Sidra from Prodigal, as they are sold out.
Who is attacking him?

Anyway I can give some thoughts on the Sidra soon since I have a sample from another roaster coming in soon.

Quietly coffee will have the sides available too (same green) and Subtext soon (also same green) for people on the hunt to try it

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luca
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#73: Post by luca »

Lwowiak wrote:Here in Australia there are a multitude of roasters who achieve much higher markups on their products. They use commercial grade beans sourced at rock bottom prices and sell with a healthy margin. No one is attacking them, even though most of this coffee is baked, over roasted or just pure crap. If the coffee is good, Prodigal is justified to charge what they like. There is no shortage of pricey coffee here in Australia - just a shortage of roasters who can supply a well (lightly) roasted filter coffee on a consistent basis.
My geek squad and I just finished exchanging a bunch of messages about what coffee we want to buy to consume. With the subscription discounts offered by TW, Sey and the wholesale discount we have aggregated to for Prodigal, and probably whatever Christopher wants to sell us from Aviary, it basically looks like we won't need to be buying anything from Australian roasters at all. Well, this is supplementing a lot of it with my home roasts, which are mostly of your co-op coffee (which we should disclose to everyone I have been cupping samples of and you have been indulging me in ordering some coffees that I especially went bananas for, like Gachatha).

Once you open up the world of online ordering, if the postage costs are reasonable, then every roaster selling online is competing with every other roaster online. For my tastes, Sey, TW, Prodigal and what I've tasted from Christopher Feran are basically the sweet spot combination of highly likely to have a roast style that I like, as well as likely to source green that I like. Christopher has years of sourcing experience for various roasting and green trading companies. TW has been doing his sourcing for decades. Sey do ridiculous bananas crazy sourcing of 10000 tiny lots from small farmers. These guys have had relationships with coffee producers where they have been able to tweak and improve the coffee that they are ordering. I don't really know much about Scott's sourcing, but obviously he has like 3 decades of experience, and what I do know from all of facsimile and tasting a lot of coffee with him is that his personal tastes align very well with mine. So, for me, a roaster sort of has to be in this zone of roast style, track record and green sourcing reach and expertise for me to seriously consider buying from them. There are certainly a few other roasters on my radar that could fit in, but not really any from Australia.

I feel sorry for the legions of small roasters trying to take advantage of low barriers to entry to enter into the market. They can certainly offer the advantage of physical proximity to their customers, but once they get into the online space, it's a bit like ... OK, you've got like a few years of experience and you're renting someone else's roasters and buying spot from the same stuff locally available to you; that's great, but there are a million others like you. But, then again, a lot of these roasters don't really do a good job of delivering consistently to their customers' expectations, so I don't know how deserving of sympathy they are if they have disdain for being held to external standards. The good news is that customers have a wide variety of taste preferences, so there's room for many roasters and coffee producers to sell their product to someone that will be happy with it. Hell, there are even some markets in the world where phenolic is considered a desirable characteristic, not a taste defect.

There's certainly a market for very expensive coffees, and I certainly agree that a lot of them are terrible. For example, there are coffees on the market now that are upwards of $500/kg, but that were harvested like March LAST YEAR and taste very papery and flat. Equally, there are aromatic, super clean washed coffees whose clean cups almost bring me to tears that are available for perfectly unremarkable prices. I mean, I think I messaged you that a friend of mine who it seems to me is a very good green buyer found a natural processed yirgacheffe that is quality and style wise not that different from Gesha Village Narsha 121 from last year, but at very unremarkable and cheap green prices. I'd actually prefer that that green were more expensive and the producers were paid better for it.

Anyway, as for Scott's pricing, he's a big boy and competing on an open market. Those of you who can find the same coffees from other roasters may want to post here what they are charging for it. People can of course decide for themselves what is worth paying for.
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Iceman2913
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#74: Post by Iceman2913 »

Well said!

I can't speak on the roaster side, but I like to track producers that interest me as well as following the harvest to market cycle that feels like it is getting back on track.

Here in the United States and Canada if you don't mind the extra shipping, you can find the same green at numerous roasters. Now we all know the same green doesn't mean the same roast quality, but I do believe there are are several roasters that can do these quality greens justice.

The Francy recently sold out at Botz, and the Sidra recently sold out at September but they offered more coffee at a cheaper price.

Quietly is currently offering the Frank Torres Sidra at 340 grams for 44 dollars. They restock it Wednesday morning.

Subtext Coffee imo is sourcing quality green better than most in North America including Prodigal and like last year, will have that Francy gesha soon.

I believe competition and options are always good, but I will always focus on the producers first. It doesn't hurt to let people know where they can find these coffees especially when it sells out within a week elsewhere.

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Lwowiak
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#75: Post by Lwowiak »

Iceman2913 wrote:Who is attacking him?

Anyway I can give some thoughts on the Sidra soon since I have a sample from another roaster coming in soon.

Quietly coffee will have the sides available too (same green) and Subtext soon (also same green) for people on the hunt to try it
I look forward to your review.

A super clean washed Sidra is hard to find here. There are numerous examples of Sidra that are fermented or honey processed, but these are expensive and risky purchases as there is no certainty of their grading.

Thanks for the advice about other roasters, always happy to give them a try.

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Lwowiak
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#76: Post by Lwowiak »

luca wrote: My geek squad and I just finished exchanging a bunch of messages about what coffee we want to buy to consume. With the subscription discounts offered by TW, Sey and the wholesale discount we have aggregated to for Prodigal, and probably whatever Christopher wants to sell us from Aviary, it basically looks like we won't need to be buying anything from Australian roasters at all. Well, this is supplementing a lot of it with my home roasts, which are mostly of your co-op coffee (which we should disclose to everyone I have been cupping samples of and you have been indulging me in ordering some coffees that I especially went bananas for, like Gachatha).
Best to keep quiet about the Gachatha, or we may miss out this year. The natural Kenyans are a better option :wink: :wink: :lol:

Iceman2913
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#77: Post by Iceman2913 »

Lwowiak wrote:I look forward to your review.

A super clean washed Sidra is hard to find here. There are numerous examples of Sidra that are fermented or honey processed, but these are expensive and risky purchases as there is no certainty of their grading.

Thanks for the advice about other roasters, always happy to give them a try.
Of course. I also agree about your sentiments on Sidras, super hard to find washed processed Sidras outside of Sey. I am currently enjoying a Pepe Jijon natural Sidra and a special process Nestor lesso Sidra from Sumo.

Furthermore, what interest me more about Prodigal is the roaster he is using compared to most here in the States. I believe Heart uses a similar roaster as well.

Whether I like Rao or not, if he and his partner are providing quality greens with a great roast then I am there. Personally I had a tad too much coffee last week but will definitely be there for his June lineup.


Edit: will keep my eyes on fresh harvest coffee from Gachatha now. High praise

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CarefreeBuzzBuzz
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#78: Post by CarefreeBuzzBuzz »

Almico wrote:I don't thing anyone is attacking Scott. In my opinion he has been a gift to coffee. He has put himself out there as an expert worthy of getting paid for his consult and buying his books.
YES he has contributed much. I am asking him to be transparent. Based on his track record, he could have made a deal with IMF and didn't disclose it and then sent an email with a detailed discussion which appeared as a buying checklist why he chose them over Loring. He pedaled Decent for quite a while while not disclosing his relationship. This is what I object to: purported objectivity tainted by $. This isn't a syndrome; this is his track record.

Maybe it's the way of the world today. As a former CPA, I lived in a more ethical world. Should I care anymore? I don't know given the way of the US recently, but I care deeply about the coffee world so it pains me more when I see this behavior there. For disclosure on my end, I have no basis to know if he really has a deal, let him tell us. That's the point.

Why is this relevant to the coffee?

So now he has claimed he has the best roaster in the world, so let's see if he can back it up with the best coffee in the world. See if he can execute on his own advice. That is why I read this thread; I want to know what you all think of his coffee; but I also want to point out to people how they should interpret what he says to them.
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Milligan
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#79: Post by Milligan »

luca wrote: I feel sorry for the legions of small roasters trying to take advantage of low barriers to entry to enter into the market. They can certainly offer the advantage of physical proximity to their customers, but once they get into the online space, it's a bit like ... OK, you've got like a few years of experience and you're renting someone else's roasters and buying spot from the same stuff locally available to you; that's great, but there are a million others like you. But, then again, a lot of these roasters don't really do a good job of delivering consistently to their customers' expectations, so I don't know how deserving of sympathy they are if they have disdain for being held to external standards. The good news is that customers have a wide variety of taste preferences, so there's room for many roasters and coffee producers to sell their product to someone that will be happy with it. Hell, there are even some markets in the world where phenolic is considered a desirable characteristic, not a taste defect.
I think this is a good take on the rise of the small micro roaster but only in the context if they are trying to compete at the razor's edge of quality and price. The competition is fierce for $40+ bags (12oz) of coffee but many small roasters have zero competition in simply providing a fresh, well sourced coffee locally. I actually feel a bit more sorry for the roasters that compete at the international level and at the highest tier due to the intense scrutiny, wide breadth of choice and reliance on a wayward/fickle audience. A newer roaster trying to break into the highest level of coffee roasting and sourcing is like a fair food truck vendor trying for a Michelin star.

On the flip side, I don't feel sorry at all for small roasters aiming at providing their community with a source of coffee other than a grocery store. Different markets for different levels of business. Interestingly, I have a friend that hit over seven figures a year slinging BBQ at events and catering all locally. He didn't need international recognition to achieve personal success. Money-wise, there is a lot of room for folks in a wide variety of coffee quality. At the highest end, it is tough just like any other field.

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Almico
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#80: Post by Almico »

CarefreeBuzzBuzz wrote:So now he has claimed he has the best roaster in the world, so let's see if he can back it up with the best coffee in the world. See if he can execute on his own advice. That is why I read this thread; I want to know what you all think of his coffee; but I also want to point out to people how they should interpret what he says to them.

My methodology with Scott has always been, "take what you need and leave the rest" and "trust but verify". I was initially skeptical about his recommended best practices for roasting and brewing, but after much testing I have found them to be invaluable and they have transformed my business.

I am sure he has been asked innumerable times about "which roaster is best", but he has always begged off the question. Now that he is in the roasting biz again he had to buy a roaster and could no longer avoid it. I don't know if he is getting compensated by the mfg for the comparison email, but if so, I do not believe that had anything to do with his decision. I believe he invested in what he thought was the best roaster for his new venture.

As far as his email: my issue with Loring has always been the inextricable link between airflow and heat. I noticed this immediately and it was my one and only question to Rob Hoos when I saw him demonstrating one a few years ago in Brooklyn. Rob side-stepped the question and minimized the correlation, but Scott says it very well in his email here:

"The amount of throughput (airflow) in Lorings is correlated with the gas setting, in order for its fuel injection system to maintain a constant air:fuel ratio. So, when using a gas setting of 80%, the throughput is roughly twice as high as when the gas is at 40% (I'm not sure if it's exactly a 1:1 ratio, but it's close). I do not like this system for two reasons: it prevents the Loring from lending itself to inlet-temperature profiling (see below), and it means the air throughput is very low when using low gas settings late in roasts. This, to me, is the reason why the IMF is better at both controlling roasts through first crack and executing dark roasts."

I agree. I typically want less heat and more airflow towards the end of a roast when smoke is greatest. It seems you cannot do this with a Loring.

Interestingly, he also states: "I don't believe there is a one-size-fits-all roaster design. If you prefer darker roasts and maximum body, you should probably use a drum roaster. At darker roast levels, inner-bean development won't be much of a concern, and you probably won't mind the lack of flavor delicacy. If you prefer light roasts and high flavor clarity, you'll probably want to choose an air roaster."

At CoffeeFest a few years ago I sat in on a roasting presentation given by several roasters that utilize a roasting cooperative in Brooklyn. In this facility they had two main roasters, a Probat UG15 and a Loring. I had assumed, like Scott said, that roasters would choose the Loring for light roasted coffee and the Probat for darker roasts. But when I asked that question specifically, every single one of them answered the opposite. They used the Probat for light roasts and the Loring for dark. Go figure.

So again, take what you need and leave the rest.