Marshall wrote:I think the greatest skill in that craft is maintaining the same flavor and aroma, year after year, crop after crop.

another_jim wrote:But it is a craft that should be left to the NCA, and avoided by the SCAA.

Touché.

another_jim wrote:But it is a craft that should be left to the NCA, and avoided by the SCAA.

I'm not sure what your point is, Jim, since neither organization blends coffees. But, I think it's fairly obvious that one can recognize the skill involved in maintaining the consistency of a commodity blend without endorsing the coffees or the companies that roast them.

Sakae wrote:When espresso stops being espresso, and drink becomes something else, like Mona Lisa, and instead drinking you feel like hanging it somewhere on the wall?

Personally, I don't have that much empty wall space in my head. Most of these "Mona Lisa wannabee" coffee blends would have to go into storage, which is what museums do with "art" they can't find a place to hang.

One of these days I will need to have a garage sale.

ken

Aimlessly wandering the web, looking for coffee to refill my stock, I found myself on the homepage another swedish roaster, Åre Kafferosteri. They recommend 10-14 days rest for most of their coffees, 21 days for at least one. They add the recommendation to drink it within 45 days after roast, but if the bag is opened is should be consumed as soon as possible.

Now, we can discuss the skill or artistry of this roaster too, but right now they are in Guatemala judging the Guatemalan COE. As are people from Verve and Olympia in the US, Square Mile in the UK and so on.

I wouldn't dream of saying that these people, Åre Kafferosteri, knows best, but they are at least very experienced and passionate about coffee.

But, and this is probably where I'm making som kind of point, what are the recommendations from US roasters? I read on Caffe Frescos webpage that their roasts hits their prime at 6-14 days.

Mayhem wrote: It'd be interesting to hear from professional roasters of both sides of the Atlantic their views on freshness and resting. While cynics might argue that a roaster who has trouble getting his product out on shelves quickly enough would want to downplay the importance of freshness, consider the opposite as well; I am sure there are plenty of roasters out there who would be delighted if everyone threw away their half-consumed bags on the 11th day to buy a new one!

Mayhem I think I had your point and I share the same thoughts than you.
Furthermore, In my well-ignored post in page 3 I also assumed that this 3-6 days Freshness mantra is a strong support for the artisan business in USA ; questioning this mantra is not going to please everyone.

It seems reading this thread that the main supporters for absolute freshness are on a side on the Atlantic and those with more nuanced views on the other.
Is it the result of culture, taste,...? I don't know.

What I do know is that if their's a consensus somewhere and you adhere to it by your experience, then stick to it! Don't try to convince those who adheres to another consensus. It'd be just a waste of time.

And it fully applies to this discussion since no proofs of all assumptions and conclusion can be given.

webgelato wrote:Mayhem I think I had your point and I share the same thoughts than you.
Furthermore, In my well-ignored post in page 3 I also assumed that this 3-6 days Freshness mantra is a strong support for the artisan business in USA ; questioning this mantra is not going to please everyone.

It seems reading this thread that the main supporters for absolute freshness are on a side on the Atlantic and those with more nuanced views on the other.
Is it the result of culture, taste,...? I don't know.

What I do know is that if their's a consensus somewhere and you adhere to it by your experience, then stick to it! Don't try to convince those who adheres to another consensus. It'd be just a waste of time.

And it fully applies to this discussion since no proofs of all assumptions and conclusion can be given.

I would not be looking for any sort of consensus. Threads like this seldom change peoples' strongly held opinions.

If one is updosing significantly, and especially if using some famous roaster's blend made from premium coffees, some "intentional staling" will be necessary because the coffee will be too concentrated when consumed too young.

If one is using a commodity "Italian type" blend then the amount of staling that occurs, within at least a defined range, won't matter much because the coffees used will not reward freshness if used when very fresh.

If on the other hand one is using "delicate single origins" and roasting them or buying roasted versions that are to be used at the "lower end of the dosing range," which here I'll define as 14-16g for a double shot, then one will likely find that after a relatively short period, say 10 days after roast, the coffee will no longer have the qualities that encouraged one to buy it in the first place.

The frequently made suggestion to Newbie participants to use fresh coffee has more to do with the ease of pulling shots that look pleasing (e.g. very good "eye cupping") than anything else. This is somewhat less important with a recently opened bag of Italian commodity coffee, since most of those blends have robusta in them and hence will "eye cup" nicely even if the actual tasting leaves something to be desired.

But as for reaching a consensus or convincing anyone else who holds similarly strongly held views, you can just about forget about that happening, now or in the future. And it doesn't matter which continent one resides on, other than the fact that there is a much greater selection of coffees for sale, in both green and roasted form, in N. America than one can easily find elsewhere.

ken

Well, Ken, pour la petite histoire some of your threads I read, had me change my mind or at least question my initials conclusions. Mainly because I can apprehend your logic and your points and take some thougts on it.

By the way, this freshness issue is one of the most confusing in my own espresso journey, so personally I'm hardly adhering to any consensus.
I had coffees (delicate SO, delicate blends, overrated SO, stale robusta blends, fresh robusta blends, regular blends, exceptional blends,...) and for each a special experience concerning what is called freshness.

Some examples :
I had Illy red blend tasting very good and very subtle 3 hours after the can was opened and dull 2 days after.
I had SO that 5 days after roast tasted like ...coffee.
I had also 80/20 Blends 2 days rest after roast at the roastery , and 3 weeks after tasting very close at home.
I had the same blend that just tasted dull 1 week after bag was opened (2weeks after roast)
I had some delicate Limu that was prime for a week.
I Had some strong Cameroun Caplami that was prime 1 week
I roasted once in my oven that same Limu and all was gone 1 week after
Once again I tried roasted the same green in my new oven with a tottaly different profile, and that one never tasted so great after 1 month spent in my cave in a illy can.


On this list, time is hardly relevant as single criteria for great/mediocre/bad coffee.
My guess is freshness is a concept that include much more than a resting time, just like the result of the extraction in your cup is much more than a flat or rounded temp profile....

Ken Fox wrote:Personally, I don't have that much empty wall space in my head. Most of these "Mona Lisa wannabee" coffee blends would have to go into storage, which is what museums do with "art" they can't find a place to hang.

One of these days I will need to have a garage sale.

ken

I have, simply put, bad sense of humor, and sorry for that last night. My ranting I think is based on my habit not trying to fix what isn't broken, and if I do find some coffee that I like, then I want the same - day in, day out. Anything else irritates me.

Getting back to the original point, if I buy coffee I want it right after roasting. That way I can taste every day or two and I'll learn when I like it best. If it is already a week or more old, I lose part of the curve and it also means that if it tastes best at two weeks, I have to consume more than I want quickly. It definitely is a curve, though once in awhile I've had a spike where something was terrible for 10 days and suddenly became very good.

I'll find sometimes when drinking home-roast that I'll run out of coffee in a week or maybe a bit longer which can sometimes mean I don't get the opportunity to try it over a two week or longer period. Sometimes I'll shift this especially if roasting for espresso by waiting at least four days before breaking into the roast.