Hi,

We have iterated on beans and gear for 30 years. Long ago it was so enjoyable to make pourover with Starbucks Verona but their beans got worse and others got better.

There is something in a good cup of coffee, I believe a physical response, and I'm wondering if it's some actual chemical or if it's just psychological.

For past 13 years we've mostly had vivace dolce brewed with a brewtus (2 boiler pid) and a range of grinders. A few years ago we switched to vivace malabar and ekende single origins. Then got a kafatek max for 3 years and it's been really great - every shot is perfect. Sometimes drink it straight, sometimes stretch it with water or ice. It seems really weird that it's so rare to find other coffees we like. Makes me think it's a me problem. Very, very rarely I'll find a roaster when traveling that satisfies me - like every few years. No joke the last best cup of coffee when traveling was a Starbucks at the top of Siam center in bkk that had a Thai/Sumatra blend pourover that was lovely - chocolate and berry and no acid and super fresh.

I recently visited 6 'high end' roasters in Barcelona and not one gave me the feeling. No hits in Italy and France.

Verve in California is also great when it's fresh but again I stick with fruitier beans.

What I'm wondering about is that I get a very pleasant feeling from the vivace that is rare in most other coffees, and I'd love to understand what I'm responding to. It feels like there is some extra something in it that my body craves.

Clues I can think of:
1) our coffee is rarely more than a week from roast, and seems to peak for us about 3-5 days out. Tastes very fresh and alive. After 8 days the zing is gone from the vivace - refrigerated it's good for perhaps 2 weeks.
2) I tried a bunch of beans from a lot of roasters and most taste and smell rancid to me. I can pull a shot from them that looks great but feeling isn't there.
3) our espresso tastes very sweet to us, but friends and neighbors say it's too intense and bitter, they add sugar which hurts to watch.
4) it's not caffeine: I usually stop drinking coffee when I can't get stuff I like
5) I once got the feeling in spades from a whipped traditional green tea thing - some sort of green tea powder that's whisked into a froth. I got exactly the espresso response - that was a marvelous feeling, but that very high end tea bar closed...
6) it's rare to find Central American beans that work, but there have been some great tasting fruit bombs from altitude in Guatemala and Ecuador - super rare though to the point that I avoid them.

I'm asking because I setup another brewtus and a kafatek mc5 at a cabin but can't find anything from local roasters that hits the spot. I don't know even what to ask for, everything just tastes bad. So I'm stuck when I run out of vivace.

Traveling in big cities I visit coffee places when I can and almost everything tastes bad to me, a lot of beans smell and taste rancid. Some local stores have racks of expensive beans but they all smell horribly rancid to me - makes me think it's a me problem.

I also need to be careful with pourover filters. Lots make coffee taste like newspaper. Hario and Peet's brand are good though.

What is going on with my experience of taste? Help?

My guess is that you like espressos that have a bit of high-quality robusta in them (which Schomer is known for).

Have you tried something from Josuma.com?

Jeff wrote:Some of your perceived response may be due to robusta in the blend, very traditional in Italian-style espresso blends.

baldheadracing wrote:My guess is that you like espressos that have a bit of high-quality robusta in them (which Schomer is known for).

Well... I do like his dolce blend. But I much prefer the two single origins I mentioned, and they have no robusta. I also usually Iove his birbir and the guji. He used to have the best sidamo but he says he can't get those beans any more - apparently, they're being bid to insane prices for 'asia'. It had a bluish crema and tasted like ripe berries and chocolate - super clear flavors. Was like taking a sip of a thunderstorm - but it's gone.

Some of his beans are pretty foul to me: I can't stand the yellow bourbon from brazil, and the central american.

I think I gravitate towards african beans: uganda, yemen and ethiopia. I've never had a bad cup of traditionally prepared Ethiopian coffee.

So... I'm sort of wondering what chemical I'm chasing. Its not just flavor when I get a good cup my whole body feels euphoria. It feels like there is something in the stuff I like that isn't in the other coffee.

baldheadracing wrote: Have you tried something from Josuma.com?

Wow their monsoon medley reads like the 'super grade monsoon malabar' that I get every week but nope I've not tried their beans. If I'm ever in menlo park I'll try and stop in.

imipolexg wrote: So... I'm sort of wondering what chemical I'm chasing. Its not just flavor when I get a good cup my whole body feels euphoria. It feels like there is something in the stuff I like that isn't in the other coffee.

This video gives an overview of the components of coffee - perhaps a stepping stone for your chase.
How To Make The Best Coffee, According To Science [VIDEO]
Unfortunately, effects as you state often have a genetic component so it is how you react to the chemical, as well as the chemical itself. I once read an article about the different effects of matcha, and matcha sounds like the green tea thing you mention. However, the chemical in matcha that is pointed to is L-theanine, which does not occur in coffee beans AFAIK (although people do put L-theanine in their coffee).

ETA: A quick browse through my Food Science textbooks shows caffeine is the big one. You could be experiencing a higher dose of caffeine than normal - for example, matcha has much more caffeine than green tea. Beyond generalities as Robusta having more caffeine than Arabica, caffeine levels do vary - for example, more-or-less, the higher grown the coffee, the less caffeine.

Another possibility are the β-Carbolines Norharman and Harman, which are MAO (monoamine oxidase) inhibitors (more-or-less anti-depressants). These two compounds in coffee vary greatly in concentration, depending on arabica/robusta, country of origin, growing climate, brewing method, etc.

ref: Part 2.3 Nervous System and Behaviour, in Coffee in Disease Control and Prevention, Victor R. Preedy, editor. Elsevier 2015.

imipolexg wrote:What is going on with my experience of taste? Help?

Random thoughts...

Have you had COVID?
How's your water quality?
Does your espresso machine need a complete citric acid descaling?
How often do you backflush with detergent, with water?
Have you thoroughly cleaned your grinder lately?

baldheadracing wrote:This video gives an overview of the components of coffee - perhaps a stepping stone for your chase.
How To Make The Best Coffee, According To Science [VIDEO]
Unfortunately, effects as you state often have a genetic component so it is how you react to the chemical, as well as the chemical itself. I once read an article about the different effects of matcha, and matcha sounds like the green tea thing you mention. However, the chemical in matcha that is pointed to is L-theanine, which does not occur in coffee beans AFAIK (although people do put L-theanine in their coffee).

ETA: A quick browse through my Food Science textbooks shows caffeine is the big one. You could be experiencing a higher dose of caffeine than normal - for example, matcha has much more caffeine than green tea. Beyond generalities as Robusta having more caffeine than Arabica, caffeine levels do vary - for example, more-or-less, the higher grown the coffee, the less caffeine.

Another possibility are the β-Carbolines Norharman and Harman, which are MAO (monoamine oxidase) inhibitors (more-or-less anti-depressants). These two compounds in coffee vary greatly in concentration, depending on arabica/robusta, country of origin, growing climate, brewing method, etc.

ref: Part 2.3 Nervous System and Behaviour, in Coffee in Disease Control and Prevention, Victor R. Preedy, editor. Elsevier 2015.

Yes it was matcha! A green powder. The barista made a big deal about it being very hard to find that quality of matcha. He suggested I try it and feeling was very strong. Extremely fresh grassy taste. I went back a few times and then they closed. I've tried it at a few places since but it didn't deliver and it tasted stale and a bit rancid. Pretty similar to my espresso problem, where everyone claims 'best quality' but there is only a few that really deliver and I can't figure out what I'm keyed on.

I don't think it's caffeine. Lots of plain coffee around the world has a ton of caffeine, as does Mountain Dew and I pretty much avoid them.

MAO: ok now we're talking. Forgot to mention the sensation is while the coffee is in the mouth and throat. Feels like it's the back of the jaw. Is MAO absorbed there? Some sort of anti depressant in coffee? Wow that could be it. I was recently without my good beans for two weeks, 2 shots a day being disappointed with the local stuff, got home and pulled a shot and felt immediate 'relief'. Just uncanny immediate relaxation. That's what made me post.

Do mao degrade quickly over time? Because 3 week old vivace has zero magic for me, tastes like every other bean.

BaristaBoy E61 wrote:Random thoughts...

Have you had COVID?
How's your water quality?
Does your espresso machine need a complete citric acid descaling?
How often do you backflush with detergent, with water?
Have you thoroughly cleaned your grinder lately?

Covid: Nope, but I had a strong cold about 20 years ago where I lost my taste and when it came back I was perceiving stuff that no one around me could taste. Could be my taste is messed up somehow. I have a similar issue with some Indian spices where I get a strong euphoria when they are very fresh. Cloves, Mace and cardamom, and a pepper that I haven't been able to pin down. When I find Indian food I love it's the chef taking unusual care with their spices and having it send fresh from home.

Water: Main home it's from a town aquifer and tastes insanely good to drink, other place is a community ro with minerals added back, the ro is very plain 'quiet' tasting. The water effects the mouthfeel and flavor 'bite' but it's not what I'm chasing.

Scaling: Old machine, new machine it's the beans not which machine

Dirty grinder: Old grinder, new grinder it's the beans not which grinder

I don't think it's caffeine, if anything a cup of regular industrial drip coffee gets me buzzed which I don't like, where the espresso I like does something different.

imipolexg wrote:Yes it was matcha! A green powder. The barista made a big deal about it being very hard to find that quality of matcha. He suggested I try it and feeling was very strong. Extremely fresh grassy taste. I went back a few times and then they closed. I've tried it at a few places since but it didn't deliver and it tasted stale and a bit rancid. Pretty similar to my espresso problem, where everyone claims 'best quality' but there is only a few that really deliver and I can't figure out what I'm keyed on.

Sounds like a typical experience with matcha (ground up tea leaves). There are different grades of matcha, different regions, etc. Matcha used to only be found in Japan, where it is used in the traditional tea ceremony. However, matcha became popular as a health food in the USA, so the quality has suffered. I only have matcha in 'Green Tea' ice cream now .

imipolexg wrote:I don't think it's caffeine. Lots of plain coffee around the world has a ton of caffeine, as does Mountain Dew and I pretty much avoid them.

MAO: ok now we're talking. Forgot to mention the sensation is while the coffee is in the mouth and throat. Feels like it's the back of the jaw. Is MAO absorbed there? Some sort of anti depressant in coffee? Wow that could be it. I was recently without my good beans for two weeks, 2 shots a day being disappointed with the local stuff, got home and pulled a shot and felt immediate 'relief'. Just uncanny immediate relaxation. That's what made me post.

Do mao degrade quickly over time? Because 3 week old vivace has zero magic for me, tastes like every other bean.

Just to clarify (and hand-waving simplify), MAO is a chemical in your brain. MAO inhibitors are a class of drugs that reduce the amount of MAO in your brain. Drugs that are MAO inhibitors were used to treat depression, and occasionally Parkinson's, but these drugs are not commonly used now due to drug interactions and potential side effects. Harmon and Norharman are naturally-occurring MAO inhibitors, perhaps most famously found in cigarette smoke. It isn't clear to me that the inhibition mechanism happens quickly enough to produce the effects that you state, but there could be something else that is triggered in combination with other drugs in coffee, say, caffeine or the chlorogenic acids in coffee.

I don't think that there is a simple answer. If everyone else had the same reaction then it would be relatively straightforward, but if only a proportion of the population has that reaction, then genetics comes in.

baldheadracing wrote:Sounds like a typical experience with matcha (ground up tea leaves). There are different grades of matcha, different regions, etc. Matcha used to only be found in Japan, where it is used in the traditional tea ceremony. However, matcha became popular as a health food in the USA, so the quality has suffered. I only have matcha in 'Green Tea' ice cream now .


Just to clarify (and hand-waving simplify), MAO is a chemical in your brain. MAO inhibitors are a class of drugs that reduce the amount of MAO in your brain. Drugs that are MAO inhibitors were used to treat depression, and occasionally Parkinson's, but these drugs are not commonly used now due to drug interactions and potential side effects. Harmon and Norharman are naturally-occurring MAO inhibitors, perhaps most famously found in cigarette smoke. It isn't clear to me that the inhibition mechanism happens quickly enough to produce the effects that you state, but there could be something else that is triggered in combination with other drugs in coffee, say, caffeine or the chlorogenic acids in coffee.

I don't think that there is a simple answer. If everyone else had the same reaction then it would be relatively straightforward, but if only a proportion of the population has that reaction, then genetics comes in.

Thanks for taking it seriously. It's pretty strange state to be in, I'd like to make sense of it.

I'm kind of hoping it's real - maybe something to do with freshness and a certain roast level. It doesn't make sense why the coffee I love is so rare. So much coffee tastes rancid and burned, and almost all fancy light roasts taste really acidic and kind of dirty.

I guess I should ask schomer what he thinks I might be chasing. Or take a class about roasting. I don't have the vocab.

Thanks again.