Blue Bottle Hayes Valley Espresso roasting site problems

Discuss flavors, brew temperatures, blending, and cupping notes.
Dr.Fishologist
Posts: 9
Joined: 4 years ago

#1: Post by Dr.Fishologist »

Hi,

I've been buying Hayes Valley espresso for a long time and have had issues reproducing the shots I love from the california roaster when I use the beans from the Brooklyn roaster. Basically it feels like they are two different coffees, with different smells, grinding and the shots pull differently and I cannot get the Brooklyn one to taste good. Basically my worse shot from california is still leagues ahead of the best pull from the Brooklyn one. Does anybody here have a similar problem with blue bottle offerings from different coasts?

I've just cancelled my one year plus subscription because they insist that they have no control over the roasting location and every time I get a shipment from Brooklyn I just get mad after the second bag of failures and just toss the third bag out and order gran crema, which is not very good compared to hayes valley from california but in my hands is still much better than the Brooklyn Hayes valley.

I would love any input on this issue, my thinking is that the original hayes valley is at the edge the envelope of what I can pull successfully and the Brooklyn is so different that I cannot replicate the shots.

Thank you,

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TomC
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#2: Post by TomC »

I'd be interested in following this for further developments. Not discounting your findings at all. I'd be curious if something as simple as global shipping, bean age and storage methods could affect the results at this level, because I can all but guarantee you the roast profiles are dead-on and closely monitored. Also, the sceptic in me wonders if a corporation the size of Nestle would risk something not being "McDonalds" level of homogeny. It'd be a rounding error for them to continuously compare/contrast a roast as popular as Hayes Valley between two locations on a weekly basis. If I was Nestle, I'd be sending several pounds each week from the east coast to the west coast to their cupping room, and vice versa and compare. And I'd be surprised if they weren't already doing that.

Are you comparing the same roasts that have the same level of roast date rest on them?
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Dr.Fishologist (original poster)
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Joined: 4 years ago

#3: Post by Dr.Fishologist (original poster) »

I was receiving 3 bags every three weeks, the roasts were 2-3 days old every time irrespective of roast location. Over several months I noticed that the Brooklyn one tasted off, never quite right ( like old cheap store bought coffee actually) I am as confused as blue bottle as to why I have this problem with the Brooklyn version. You all know how hard it is to dial in a new coffee and get the best shot, it feels like the Brooklyn version is a completely different coffee. With the California version I, I would notice subtleties like the coffee aging over the first two weeks and I have to adjust my grind setting slightly to compensate (I actually like it best after two weeks), I also noticed the taste changing from shipment to shipment but never by a lot, that's why I liked blue bottle and their subscription service, But when they switched to the Brooklyn location and it really threw a monkey wrench in there for me and I'm still trying to figure out why and also if I'm the only one that notices this.

For the longest time I felt like I was taking crazy pills but after doing side by side with different batches and even blind taste tests with the help of my wife I determined that I am not crazy ( I do have a PhD in neuroscience and hate the placebo effect and expectation biases).

Maybe I have mutant taste buds, who knows? What is funny is that my wife always says that she could not tell the difference between the two locations but she never complimented me on making her an awesome latte when the beans were from Brooklyn.

Dr.Fishologist (original poster)
Posts: 9
Joined: 4 years ago

#4: Post by Dr.Fishologist (original poster) »

Okay, this morning I just read another post on this website about hayes valley, and I tried the new 1 to 0.8 ratio they recommend (although the cards included in my shipment still hint at 1:1. I did a 20g in 16g out pull and the taste of the Brooklyn was significantly better (although not the best ever pulled).

I still think the coffees are different because the california still tastes good at a 1:1 ratio whereas now I realize the Brooklyn needs a more severe ristretto at 1:0.75 to be good.

I love this forum, you guys are great. I will stay here a while if you don't mind me.

emradguy
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#5: Post by emradguy »

As our tastes all vary based on so many things you are already aware of due to your career choice, it should be no surprise to you that those recommendations coming from the roasters should be considered ballpark targets...and that dialing in the shot, once you get there, is an exercise of teasing out the flavors you detect and like and balancing them to optimize your enjoyment. After years of experience, you may find that you don't need roaster recommendations anymore. Instead, you get your beans and start playing with them until you get the shots the way you want them. Consider also, that extractions will vary from place to place based on grinder make and model, burrs in the grinder (both geometry and age), machine make and model, pump setting, presence or absence of pre-infusion, portafilter basket, distribution method/technique, tamp, water temperature and chemical make up of water used. It's impossible to exactly replicate the complete environment of the roastery.
LMWDP #748

Dr.Fishologist (original poster)
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#6: Post by Dr.Fishologist (original poster) replying to emradguy »



Everything you say is true, but they don't negate the fact that for several months before they started roasting in Brooklyn I saw all the subtle variations of hayes valley when I did minor tweaks of protocol. I made exquisite shots and some lesser shots during that time, but established a good protocol over that time. My problem and the reason for posting is that the results from the version from Brooklyn fell way way outside that range. I could accept that if I switched roasters, but when a company says the beans are the same by calling them the same name, they should produce results in the same range. You do understand that I would not expect all coffees to require the same protocol, I am not that much of a newbie. I just think it's a mistake to call those two coffees by the same name in an effort to shave shipping costs and save pennies a pound.

emradguy
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#7: Post by emradguy »

Sorry man, didn't mean to sidetrack the point. I totally agree with you about the expectation that both roasting facilities should be producing the same product consistently.
LMWDP #748

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nuketopia
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#8: Post by nuketopia »

That's sort of the cost of success.

Blue Bottle grew, then got bought. Now they need to grow more.

But the supply of "specialty coffee" is actually quite small. It is an agricultural product and all but a tiny percentage is low quality commodity, grown, harvested, processed and sold as cheaply as possible.

As the volume of product increases, so does the need for an increased supply chain. So, the bigger you get, the lower down the bell curve of quality you are forced to buy. It is a simple reality in any business where a rare commodity is relied upon, be it high grade coffee or extremely talented computer engineers.

Dr.Fishologist (original poster)
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#9: Post by Dr.Fishologist (original poster) »

emradguy wrote:Sorry man, didn't mean to sidetrack the point. I totally agree with you about the expectation that both roasting facilities should be producing the same product consistently.
Hey no problem, I'm just on here trying to find more people who have the same experience in order to put pressure on blue bottle with the same united message. You guys are all correct, coffee taste is very personal, I've tried many companies and roasts and hayes valley (From oakland) just hits all the right notes for me. I'm just exasperated because I don't know how long it will take me to find another one like it.

Philg
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#10: Post by Philg »

I don't know anything about coffee roasting but there was a radio story (This American Life) about a beloved hot dog manufacturer that
moved to a new factory. They built the new facility with the intention of producing an identical product but, of course wanted to make
as nice a new facility as they could. The hot dogs were not the same, if I remember right, among other differences, they looked different (so a more tangible difference)

Turns out one of the improvements meant that the hot dogs didn't have to be carried in trays - this rest or exposure or whatever
made the difference.

So, perhaps a big company setting out to duplicate a product might focus on the logical, intentional
parts of the process and miss some "non active ingredient" aspect that makes a difference.

When I heard the hot dog story I wondered to
myself if the new procedure was seen as a sanitation improvement, if it might be hard to say "no, now we put them in open trays and walk them
around, it improves the color..."

So maybe, the new coffee facility is missing something that more discriminating customers notice.

I didn't read the whole thread carefully - I'm surprised they can't just ship from the preferred location for you. I hope you find reliable coffee you like.

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