Anyone know how George Howell's "Espresso" beans differ from regular versions? - Page 2

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MikeTheBlueCow
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#11: Post by MikeTheBlueCow »

dmw010 wrote:George Howell doesn't roast anything really dark. Their darkest roasts are closer to what others would call medium. They also do multiple espresso roast profiles for the same coffee, such as Daterra and Daterra Calabria espresso roasts (and I think they've had Northern Italian and Southern Italian variants in the past). They call Daterra Calabria their darkest roast, but it is not a dark roast by any means.

And, yes, I've only seen Alchemy as an espresso blend. It's my go-to "crowdpleaser" coffee using any brewing method.
Out of curiosity... they also have Vienna and French roasts. Calabria seems as if it's what is more commonly referred to as Italian roast? So all of these are commonly thought of as ending after the start of 2nd crack and I thought this was widely considered to be "dark" because they will lead to oils on the beans. I am also under the impression that terms like Vienna, French, and Italian have a somewhat-agreed upon connotation of roast level, as far as timing goes, and at least generally understandable to mean something on the darker side of a roast level. So do you think GH is roasting lighter than what these terms usually mean?

Using Sweet Maria's as a reference, I am also wondering if GH is separating roast terms for filter vs espresso roasts. "Drip", "French", and "Vienna" maybe being intended for filter coffee, and North/South Italian and Calabrian being intended as espresso roasts (each of these specifically has "Espresso" in their names on the GH website). SM states "Northern Italian style espresso is usually roasted to 440F - 446F internal bean temperature. Southern Italian (Scura) is generally a Light French Roast." So these are all very much in the same "family" of roasts and just slight differentiations maybe so GH can more clearly identify which are intended for espresso and which are intended for filter.

Edit: I guess what I mean is if I'm misunderstanding Vienna, French, etc as being widely considered "dark", or is GH roasting lighter and not using these terms in their more widely thought of uses, or am I even further off base? I'm just curious exactly how dark GH gets, and if these are roasted to what I'm expecting a French, Vienna, etc. would be or if they are lighter than that.

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Jeff
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#12: Post by Jeff »

I don't think there's any agreement on roast level terms in the industry.

To be clear, this is not George Howell shown below. The beans in the basket are identified as an "espresso" roast by a San Francisco roaster (my "medium" or so). The oily beans in the measuring cup are identified as "medium" by a recipient of Roast Magazine's Roaster of the Year.


MikeTheBlueCow
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#13: Post by MikeTheBlueCow »

I definitely agree that the term "espresso" as it relates to roast level is near-meaningless, since it only states what the roaster's intent is for the beans. But aren't terms like Vienna, French, Full City+, charged with a bit more meaning? At least in the specialty coffee realm?

Richard
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#14: Post by Richard replying to MikeTheBlueCow »

In a word, no. See post #12 in this thread, for example.
-- Richard

Nate42
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#15: Post by Nate42 »

MikeTheBlueCow wrote:
Edit: I guess what I mean is if I'm misunderstanding Vienna, French, etc as being widely considered "dark", or is GH roasting lighter and not using these terms in their more widely thought of uses, or am I even further off base? I'm just curious exactly how dark GH gets, and if these are roasted to what I'm expecting a French, Vienna, etc. would be or if they are lighter than that.
I've never had a GH French Roast, as I don't care for French Roast and wouldn't pay GH money for one. But I think its safe to assume its pretty dark. That's a pretty universally understood term. Same is likely true of Vienna, but again I haven't personally tried it.

GH standard drip coffee roasts aren't Nordic style ultra light roasts, but they also aren't even in shouting distance of 2nd crack. I call them light.

GH espresso roasts tend to be in the City+ to Full City territory, to use Sweet Marias style terms.

Individual coffees may be exceptions, but these are the general rules.

For filter in particular, if you like light roasts, GH was doing it before it was cool. Its good stuff, try it.

MikeTheBlueCow
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#16: Post by MikeTheBlueCow »

Richard wrote:In a word, no. See post #12 in this thread, for example.
That is indeed the post I was responding to. I think "medium" is wholly subjective, and if one considers everything from a cinnamon to a charcoal as a roast level, then 2nd crack and a bit oily is "in the middle" and therefore could be legitimately interpreted as "medium" (so I can take it that maybe not everyone will consider French as "dark", I concede that). But in my understanding, terms like City, Fully City, and French, Vienna, Italian have qualifiers associated with the terms in relation to how far into/past either first or second crack they are brought to. Which must be why GH uses them so I guess I just needed clarification that they are using the terms with precision. I think I was just confused that some do not consider these on the darker side, but now that I've thought about it from a different angle I will accept the error in my earlier comment. I think I was coming from a narrower perspective that in specialty coffee most considered 2nd crack as "dark" and didn't accept roasts any darker than that... but I agree this is a narrowed frame of mind that might come from a place of appreciation but might turn some people off, and I don't personally mean to say "that's too dark". Just looking to calibrate to the wider-agreed thinking on it :)

Nate42 wrote:I've never had a GH French Roast, as I don't care for French Roast and wouldn't pay GH money for one. But I think its safe to assume its pretty dark. That's a pretty universally understood term. Same is likely true of Vienna, but again I haven't personally tried it.

GH standard drip coffee roasts aren't Nordic style ultra light roasts, but they also aren't even in shouting distance of 2nd crack. I call them light.

GH espresso roasts tend to be in the City+ to Full City territory, to use Sweet Marias style terms.

Individual coffees may be exceptions, but these are the general rules.

For filter in particular, if you like light roasts, GH was doing it before it was cool. Its good stuff, try it.
I have been to GH in Boston actually, but of course don't get to see the beans before they brew them. Excellent coffee. I just had never had their darker roasts so didn't know how far dark to expect, considering I thought I was familiar with their terminology, but wasn't clear on the medium vs dark consideration among users. I should pick up a bag at each roast level perhaps!

Nate42
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#17: Post by Nate42 »

Jeff wrote:I don't think there's any agreement on roast level terms in the industry.

To be clear, this is not George Howell shown below. The beans in the basket are identified as an "espresso" roast by a San Francisco roaster (my "medium" or so). The oily beans in the measuring cup are identified as "medium" by a recipient of Roast Magazine's Roaster of the Year.

image
Can I ask what specific roasters and coffees those are? Just curious. I can't imagine what specialty roaster would call that second one medium, looks more like charcoal to me. :)

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Jeff
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#18: Post by Jeff »

Upper is Linea El Injerto Espresso. Lower is Peerless Hawaiian Island Blend, "Medium Roast", purchased for initial seasoning of burrs. There was also a "dark" roast on the shelf there from Peerless, so I was rather surprised.

Charlemagne
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#19: Post by Charlemagne »

I've noticed that brands that aren't typically associated with the ~Third~Wave~ have a very different idea of roast levels. I'm pretty confident it has nothing to do with the actual development and everything to do with marketing. For them, light doesn't exist, medium is dark, dark is beyond 2C, and "espresso roast" is just another word for dark.

dmw010
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#20: Post by dmw010 »

Years ago, I talked with George Howell's son about their roast level designations. He told me they have their own roast level designations, which do not necessarily correspond to any "standard" definitions. I'll admit I've never tried a GH Vienna or French roast, but I would be very surprised if they were anywhere near as dark (or visibly oily) as most roasters' versions of those roasts.