lol, clearly i don't drink them. Maybe I should explore more of that area's coffee. I guess I got the geography wrong. I just mean dark oily Italian roasts, which is what the point I'm making is in regards to.

But, I think you are right, too about my misconception. Vivace considers their dolce a Northern Italian roast. Pretty dark, imo.

Why, oh why did I read through this whole thread ... I mean, only those who depend on what the "shops" are doing would really care, right? And most here don't because they take care of themselves when it comes to coffee! The odd travel stop will always be a fun experience if for nothing more than to reaffirm the quality of the coffee you make ... or to challenge you to do what they did if it was favorable.

Well, the reason why I made it this far is that I love to learn and I think I'm just like everyone else who doesn't mind taking a peek at what others do just to maybe go try something different. Nobody tells me what beer or wine I like and the same goes for coffee, but that doesn't mean I don't like to try something interesting and decide whether that comes into my fold, and how far.

If 3rd Wave is about quality then Bravo! ... but we still make our own choices and to me no matter what the shops do I stay in good coffeeland as I'm sure most here do to. Cheers, and I'm glad I stopped by! .... I think!?!

Esmeralda Mario Carnival Geisha in the mail....jus sayin

BTW, I never thought 3rd wave had anything to do with roast level. 3rd wave is about terroir and transparentness to the source. I think some roasters took that to mean roasting lighter and not roasting out the distinctiveness of the coffee.

But as Jim points out, while distinctiveness is roast dependent, you don't need to roast very light to be able to distinguish one coffee from the other. I think coffees lose distinctiveness on both ends of the roasting spectrum.

I have an Antigua Guat that is just dead when roasted light. When brought to the edge of 2C it comes alive and along with some lovely caramel and cocoa notes there is a very juicy watermelon that just doesn't exist before "cooking" that coffee.

We can still read about "third wave" in its original context thanks to the Wayback Machine. Here's the original article in The Flamekeeper. I think it's evident that the term has both evolved over time (Trish gave a talk last year at Tamper Tantrum, elaborating more on the concept and her thoughts as an industry veteran), but it has also been adopted, shifted, molded by others within and without the coffee industry to take on more and different meanings.

I enjoyed reading this thread. Thanks.

I agree with some of the points....

1. Espresso machine operators in cafes are largely clueless wherever I have been
2. I had amazing 3rd wave espresso several times only at Fahrenheit in Toronto where I could finally say... ah that's what it can be
3. Regardless of how dark or light my home roasts are done or even if I mess up, I can blend them to be delicious since I abandoned the single origin fetish
4. Darker roasts are easier for me to get thicker shots with my low end equipment but I can make anything taste good going finer, lowering dose, adjusting temps, and clutching my flair as needed
Which goes back to #1.... there's no excuse for crappy coffee if you have a decent set of heuristics