dave_in_gva wrote: ... [about 3rd wave shots] ... Without question the degree of roast shapes how origin flavours are presented in the cup. I suppose for me what I would call the central failing of 3rd wave espresso is the way in which preservation of origin flavours is chased after in many settings comes ultimately at the expense of other dimensions that I value in espresso. I value balance. I value sweetness. I value acidity. I value being able to discern interesting flavours that add nuance and complexity. I value body and length. And I value all of my palate (mouth, tongue and nasopharynx) engaged in what I am tasting. To me a great espresso - what Jim might call a distinctive espresso - comes when all those cylinders are firing.

This is an important point: origin flavors versus distinctiveness.

In roasting, the "origin flavors" are the acidic fruits and flowers ones that show up most in lighter roasts as contrasted to the "roast flavors" which are the caramels and distillates that develop in deeper roasts. As Dave says, the 3rd wave assumption is that origin flavors is what is distinctive about a coffee, and the roast flavors are generic. So the darker you roast, the harder it becomes to tell two coffees from adjacent estates apart.

Dave's point is that this may be true, but there are other things that matter to espresso. My point was that I don't think ultra-light roasts are best even for telling similar coffees apart. Wines become more distinctive by being aged in oak; coffee graders have to roast and cup, because green coffee isn't at all distinctive; and even COE cupping roasts are darker than many 3rd wave roasts.

But Dave is saying that going after origin flavors is a kind of false objectivity that exists at the expense of refined and experienced subjective pleasure. This is in line with the standards for 3rd wave espresso being created more by internet talk than by actual tasting experience. I have to admit that my "distinctiveness project" is on the back burner since I'm having way too much fun rediscovering blending.

Espresso is a Italian coffee creation that has defined parameters and lightly/ultra-lightly roasted high extraction yield coffee is not Espresso. Just as a vanilla wafer is not Biscotti. Calling 3rd wave coffee Espresso is a stretch.

I see your point, I do. But I'm also expecting many to chime in post haste with their fierce disagreement.

I like analogies. Here's another one: Tex Mex Food VS Traditional Mexican Food. I like both. I gravitate towards traditional, such as traditional tacos: soft corn tortilla, meat, cilantro, and onions (+salsa and lime). But I enjoy Tex Mex food plenty, and I'd say it's been around long enough to be considered a "valid" (maybe that doesn't have to be in quotation marks) cuisine. However, if you say a burrito is Mexican food to some folks, they might say "NO, it's *TEX* Mex." But if you enjoy your traditional taco as much as a burrito, hey, cada loco con su tema.

I mostly crave N. Italian tastes. But I drink it all depending on my mood, and I'm calling it all espresso.

OldNuc wrote:Espresso is a Italian coffee creation that has defined parameters and lightly/ultra-lightly roasted high extraction yield coffee is not Espresso. Just as a vanilla wafer is not Biscotti. Calling 3rd wave coffee Espresso is a stretch.

Well, Brits invented football and its rules, but still North Americans call their odd version (where the ball is actually mostly played with hands) football. American football is so far away from football that 3rd wave espresso and espresso by Italian standards compared with each other are practically the same thing.

And there is a theory that the French invented espresso first (express pour vous). It was not like the espresso we know today.

Following only what others do.... I think we would still live in the trees among the apes - not having espresso at all.

Nick Name wrote:Well, Brits invented football and its rules, but still North Americans call their odd version (where the ball is actually mostly played with hands) football. American football is so far away from football that 3rd way espresso and espresso by Italian standards compared with each other are practically the same thing.

I call American Football "Throwball." I was born and live in the US but gave up years ago on American football. I now watch soccer....which I call football (and fútbol).

Oh, I'm very popular at parties. You'd think people would at least come for the espresso!

another_jim wrote: I have to admit that my "distinctiveness project" is on the back burner since I'm having way too much fun rediscovering blending.

Blending is high art when done well, Jim.

As Jackie Robinson said, "A life is not important except in the impact it has on other lives".

A single origin is not important except in the impact it has on a blend.

OldNuc wrote:Espresso is a Italian coffee creation that has defined parameters and lightly/ultra-lightly roasted high extraction yield coffee is not Espresso. Just as a vanilla wafer is not Biscotti. Calling 3rd wave coffee Espresso is a stretch.

Can one take this to mean only the Moriondo (awesome thread, BTW) coffee? Those were the original espresso machines.

The one done at boiling temps - before the levers (Gaggia) and pumps (Faema?) were added to allow extractions at lower temps to be done?

Or do we draw the line rather arbitrarily in the 50s or 70s? If so - why?

Has no one considered that maybe they're just not very good at pulling SO light beans or haven't visited shops who are capable either? There are really only a few shops I know of that actually can do it, and sacrifice the time required to do so. At home use, the only reason I would know it's my technique and not the bean's fault is if it weren't for a local shop who is very good at extracting the fruit notes from very difficult beans and I have something to compare against.

Comfort blends are so much easier to work with. Light SO's require a lot more dedication.

This is such a silly and subjective thread. Arguing over how the bean should be roasted because it was first used in Italy.... sheesh.

If you want to bring pressure/temperature/grind into the discussion then why not call drip pot espresso? The Italians have been using the term Espresso for quite some time. When it evolved from Express to espresso to Espresso might be of trivial interest but none of them are produced from lightly roasted beans. The 3rd wave OJ is a light/very light roast level. No way is this true Italian espresso even though it is extracted using common espresso machines.