3rd wave bad, North Italian good - Page 2

Discuss flavors, brew temperatures, blending, and cupping notes.
CwD
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#11: Post by CwD »

Meh, I feel the exact opposite. Anything much darker than Wendelboe is already irredeemably overroasted and chocolatey flavors that develop from roasting taste awful (I have had a couple beans that just had chocolate notes at any roast that were good, however). And strictly single origin, no espresso blends. That said I think many coffee roasters, even ones that roast relatively darker, have a problem with underdevelopment. So I usually stick with a small few who I know can do a competent super light roast. Wendelboe, Sump, Coffee Collective, Talor & Jorgen, and a few others. Not to mention how much more difficult and gear intensive the preparation, I don't trust many cafes to make good shots.

Never had an Americano I liked either. Much less one that wouldn't have just been better as a straight shot.

But the nice thing is that we can both drink something the other considers utter garbage without any trouble. And each be catered to by dozens of roasters.

dave_in_gva (original poster)
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#12: Post by dave_in_gva (original poster) »

Tend to agree with those suggesting that a light roast works best as an Americano. The extra water provides clarity and flavour separation.

I defnitely prefer darker roasts for straight shots. To me, straight espresso works best with the chocolatey, nutty flavours that come from a medium to dark roast.

Those "tropical fruit" flavours that can appear in a light roast don't suit a short sharp straight shot. If I want those flavours I can have a glass of Verdelho :)
Very clear post and interesting point you and others have made here. In my original post I should perhaps have clarified I only very rarely drink anything other than double espresso, espresso or ristretto.

I've been homeroasting for 20 years and have dialled in all sorts of roasts, single origins and blends on a succession of machines (now very happy with a Vesuvius). I'm also quite a fan of wines and have a rather large wine cellar. To me the thing that is missing from so-called 3rd wave espresso is balance. While I will readily agree I can pick up things in the cup that you will not taste on a more developed roast I have never truly enjoyed one of these 3rd wave espressos. Far too sour, and acidic - to the point where the whole concept of balance feels entirely estranged from whats in the cup.

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Laurentje
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#13: Post by Laurentje »

CwD wrote:Meh, I feel the exact opposite. Anything much darker than Wendelboe is already irredeemably overroasted and chocolatey flavors that develop from roasting taste awful (I have had a couple beans that just had chocolate notes at any roast that were good, however). And strictly single origin, no espresso blends. That said I think many coffee roasters, even ones that roast relatively darker, have a problem with underdevelopment. So I usually stick with a small few who I know can do a competent super light roast. Wendelboe, Sump, Coffee Collective, Talor & Jorgen, and a few others. Not to mention how much more difficult and gear intensive the preparation, I don't trust many cafes to make good shots.

Never had an Americano I liked either. Much less one that wouldn't have just been better as a straight shot.

But the nice thing is that we can both drink something the other considers utter garbage without any trouble. And each be catered to by dozens of roasters.

Competent being the key word here. Roasting lighter is most of the time very delicious when done properly with an even roast development.

Sometimes inner colour isn't even lighter. You should get into judging roast colour when ground, not beans.

DeGaulle
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#14: Post by DeGaulle »

I just returned from a 2-week trip to Germany and visited one cafe in Heidelberg called Coffeenerd. The place breathed "3rd wave" as I had pictured it. They had 2 Mythos grinders and a Slayer and most customers were busy on their laptops. I had one straight shot from a Costa Rican coffee, which was allright, but a bit thin-bodied. When I had asked what was in store, I settled for a bag of Guatemala "Domingo" from La Cabra roasters in Aarhus (DK) that was in the words of the salesman "omniroast"; fairly light, but not too light, suitable for all brew methods and highly recommended. 17 Euros for 250 grams... OK, well, let's give it a try.
This norning I opened it up, had to tighten up the grind setting on my grinder (Compak K3) about as far as it can go; on the second try, the dwell time was about 7 seconds, which is what I typically shoot for to get in the ballpark. A thin pale crema appeared on top; not too promising fron its appearance, but it tasted very good. Yes, quite acidic on the first sip, but just not too much and a pleasant bitter in the aftertaste. While my safe bet is pulped natural Brazil of medium roast and the like, this was a reminder to keep an open mind.
Bert

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Almico
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#15: Post by Almico »

CwD wrote:Meh, I feel the exact opposite. Anything much darker than Wendelboe is already irredeemably overroasted and chocolatey flavors that develop from roasting taste awful .
You, and .000001% of the coffee drinking population. "Not that there' anything wrong with that".

I'm sipping a Kenya AA Karindundu sample from Nordic Approach this morning. Supposedly, they are the ones that really know how to do a developed light roast. There aren't any grassy or vegetal notes and I'm not picking up any roast defects. They said they roast their samples on either the Roest or a Probat sample roaster.

But it is truly awful as straight espresso. No body or mouthfeel, and it tasted like I was sucking on a lemon rind. That said, I added some hot water and a few maple syrup and it got much better.

There is no way I could serve coffee like this. It is not underdeveloped, just under roasted.

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EddyQ
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#16: Post by EddyQ »

Almico wrote:But it is truly awful as straight espresso. No body or mouthfeel, and it tasted like I was sucking on a lemon rind. That said, I added some hot water and a few maple syrup and it got much better.
Try bumping your espresso temps up a few degrees.
LMWDP #671

erik82
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#17: Post by erik82 »

DeGaulle wrote:I just returned from a 2-week trip to Germany and visited one cafe in Heidelberg called Coffeenerd. The place breathed "3rd wave" as I had pictured it. They had 2 Mythos grinders and a Slayer and most customers were busy on their laptops. I had one straight shot from a Costa Rican coffee, which was allright, but a bit thin-bodied. When I had asked what was in store, I settled for a bag of Guatemala "Domingo" from La Cabra roasters in Aarhus (DK) that was in the words of the salesman "omniroast"; fairly light, but not too light, suitable for all brew methods and highly recommended. 17 Euros for 250 grams... OK, well, let's give it a try.
This norning I opened it up, had to tighten up the grind setting on my grinder (Compak K3) about as far as it can go; on the second try, the dwell time was about 7 seconds, which is what I typically shoot for to get in the ballpark. A thin pale crema appeared on top; not too promising fron its appearance, but it tasted very good. Yes, quite acidic on the first sip, but just not too much and a pleasant bitter in the aftertaste. While my safe bet is pulped natural Brazil of medium roast and the like, this was a reminder to keep an open mind.
I just made an espresso from the La Cabra Domingo and it was really full with thick crema and very syrupy without too much acidity. A great grinder and very stable espresomachine does make the difference, especially with light roasts. I never found the Compak K3 very good and especially bad for light roasts.

There a lot of roaster trying to roasts light but just don't have the skills with underdevelopment being the result. There even more baristas ruing good roasts. Having good light roasted coffee with the right brewing parameters makes wonderfull espresso.

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Almico
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#18: Post by Almico »

EddyQ wrote:Try bumping your espresso temps up a few degrees.
It's not just a temp thing. I run my machine at 1.35bar and I won't run it hotter. It's a HX machine so I can pull a shot straight from the HX and it will be hotter than if I gave a quick flush. I have a Scace in my future, I just can't see spending the $600 yet.

The first shot gushed like I had a french press grind in the basket. I had to tune my grinder waaaaaay fine to get a shot to run normally. Just too many gyrations to make bad espresso.

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JohnB.
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#19: Post by JohnB. »

Almico wrote:It's not just a temp thing. I run my machine at 1.35bar and I won't run it hotter. It's a HX machine so I can pull a shot straight from the HX and it will be hotter than if I gave a quick flush. I have a Scace in my future, I just can't see spending the $600 yet.
You can still buy the Scace 1 for $300 & use it in any 58mm pf.
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SiempreTuParceroMike
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#20: Post by SiempreTuParceroMike »

A topic I think about all the time. Great posts by all.

I tend to agree with the OP. I'm surely a newbie compared to many or most of you guys, but I've been drinking just espresso, straight up (no sugar) 95% of the time I drink coffee for around five years now. So, I've drank and drink lots of espresso.

Now that I've gotten my fear of inadequacy out of the way, I'm convinced a great deal of the problem is user/barista error. I definitely gravitate towards medium to darker roasts, but after 2-3 days of those shots, I do start to feel like something fruiter. And I have indeed pulled/tasted shots with very light roasts that I really liked. Other times they were awful, and I'm sure it was either 1) user error and/or equipment, or 2) old beans that caused the problem. Oh, raising the temp absolutely helps temper sourness, at least it does with my gear.

I also find this interesting:

https://www.femaflavor.org/supertaster- ... ch-are-you

I haven't tried that test on myself yet, but I'm very curious. Some of us are taller, some of us pudgier, blue eyes, black hair, etc. Why couldn't it be true that we taste differently?

I left out the part where I talk about how much I love torrefacto coffee, but I'm likely to do so anytime someone says "Spain."

Best,
Mike