What is wrong with Starbucks? - Page 4

Talk about your favorite cafes, local barista events, or plan your own get-together.
pacificmanitou
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Joined: 12 years ago

#31: Post by pacificmanitou »

I dont think the point here is community return as a business model. In that respect, starbucks excels. They market themselves as a place to go and do work or have a meeting, or at my local store, study for finals. Our point is that we as hobbyists wont go in a store for atmosphere. The reason we would go to a coffee bar is to get coffee as good or better than what we can do at home, then consume it, enjoying the flavors. It lets us try coffees we arent currently working with, as well as (for me) talk with some quality baristas and watch technique. At a starbucks we get to watch a super-auto spit out melted styrofoam flavored liquid into a paper cup. Atmosphere wont help the taste any.
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Anvan
Posts: 518
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#32: Post by Anvan »

Having spent (perhaps mis-spent) a career at it, I can say with some confidence and authority that "marketing" is all about answering two questions.

The first one is "what do people want" and the second is "why will they buy it from YOU."

Regardless of all our well-learned and hard-earned espresso expertise, it is painful to realize that Starbucks comprehensively understands the answers to both these questions. This is why they are an international juggernaut while our thread's vain protestations of not-goodness are meaningless in judging their business success.

When it's about business, it doesn't matter what we might think are the best/who-cares beans or the ideal/stupid roasting parameters or the consistent/unacceptable brainless super-automatics. Tonight at 9:30, my uncle will tell me I made the best cup of coffee he ever had. Nine hours later, he will be lined up before sunrise at Starbucks on the way to work because at that very moment they have what he wants and he'd rather buy it there.

Why there and not at "Caffe Delicioso" a block away, two bucks cheaper, brilliant and fun baristas, no wait and an absolutely superb product?

I've got no idea.

But Starbucks knows exactly why, zip code by zip code, target demographic by target demographic, segment by segment. "Knowledge" about the coffee business is different than "knowledge" about coffee.

Like they used to say about IBM (amazing, thinking back that there were decades when this was actually true) "They aren't the competition - they're the environment."

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AlexKilpatrick (original poster)
Posts: 116
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#33: Post by AlexKilpatrick (original poster) »

Here's how a company can compete with Starbucks. Use knowledgeable, friendly baristas; use the best coffee (several varieties); use high-end equipment and grinders; use impeccable technique; hold classes, etc.

Do all of that, and charge $7 for an espresso shot, $10 for a latte -- be the "ultra high end" coffee house. People will try it partially out of curiosity, and partially out of status. They will find the coffee better (confirmation bias), and will start to look down on Starbucks as more of a low-end place.

You may think it is ridiculous for people to pay $10 for a latte, but it wasn't that long ago that paying $4 for a latte was ridiculous. I don't think you would ever get as wide of a market as Starbucks, but the profit margins would be obscene.

If anyone makes money from this idea, my fee is 10% :|

Nuprin
Posts: 171
Joined: 14 years ago

#34: Post by Nuprin »

It all comes down to the SPEED at which they can operate, which means more profit per hour. That's ALL they care about. Also, I believe their bean counters determined there would be at least 10% less waste in espresso grinds if they switched to a superauto.

Starbuck's brand recognition is similar to Apple to the average uninformed coffee drinker, except if the quality of Apple products were like E machines or Compaq.

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Peli
Posts: 24
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#35: Post by Peli »

With corporate coffee, consistency is king. The strength of their brand hinges on the customer's trust that a Starbucks is indeed a Starbucks. This begs for super automatics and high volumes of easy to source and often unremarkable beans.

It's easy to conflate the idea of the cafe with coffee itself. While the two have co-evolved, understand that even if their coffee is subpar, there is meaning in the creation of a Third Space as Starbucks has excelled in doing.

Starbucks has never sold a hazelnut flavored coffee, nor do I think they will ever. They still hold dear the idea of origin, and it makes me happy that the labeling of their roasted beans hint at "cocoa and soft spice" here and "crisp acidity with floral notes" there. I'd rather see that than I would bags of syrup coated nameless beans.

I sit here with a 12 ounce whole milk latte made on their Mastrena, a machine I find inferior to the Thermoplan CTS2 and Linea that preceded it. The overly steamed milk has only a hint of sweetness left, the micro foam not dense enough but at least in the right proportion. The espresso is under extracted, tasteless. Forgettable, yet not.
~Lowly Barista at Joe Van Gogh's of North Carolina~

Nuprin
Posts: 171
Joined: 14 years ago

#36: Post by Nuprin »

SOME people can be shown the way to artisan coffee. SOME people become mesmerized by that first taste of real coffee. I was. You were. Most dont care. Even IF they taste the difference, they could really care less.
Jeff, you hit this right on the head. One of my best friends lives with his brother and his father. They make coffee at home everyday. I've known them for 15 years, almost like family and they live about 15 minutes from my shop. They know how much better the coffee I serve/sell, Counter Culture is compared to the crap they can buy at the grocery store. I even offed to let them buy my coffee at cost.

Guess what? 95% of the time they buy the crap at the grocery store. It's really about convenience for people and what routine they're used to. Most people are just LAZY first followed by the fact that they just don't care.

Another example: We have a Fetco brewed dark roast on drip (because 70% of customers ask for dark/bold roast) and then we offer pour-overs for our light/medium roasts. Every week at least a few people come in and ask for a light roast. I tell them we only have dark on the drip, but offer pour-overs of some fantastic single origin lighter roasts. You know what the respones is 90% of the time? "Oh, just give me the dark roast" - even if it's to stay and they're not in a rush.

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keno
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#37: Post by keno »

Here's another thing wrong with Starbucks, that someone could even order a drink like this:
Time wrote:Gourmet java thrill-seeker Beau Chevassus dropped by a Starbucks in Enumclaw, Wash. and proceeded to order "some sort of venti frappuccino" made macchiato-style, then loaded it up with soy, strawberries, mango, mocha drizzle, matcha powder, protein powder, two bananas, caramel brulée topping, caramel drizzle, vanilla bean, frappuccino chips and - wait for it - a whopping 48 shots of espresso, technically making it a "quadriginoctuple" frap. If we assume about 75mg of caffeine per shot of Starbucks espresso, we're talking a heart-stopping 3,600 mg, or something like 11 full 16 oz. cups of Starbucks coffee (that'd be a "Grande" size cup, btw). And that's not counting all those sugar-packed extras.
http://newsfeed.time.com/2013/02/20/wat ... starbucks/

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pacificmanitou
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Joined: 12 years ago

#38: Post by pacificmanitou »

I admittedly judge the probable quality of espresso by the number of things on the menu that stray from espresso and the immediate derivative drinks. This is an example of that in effect
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jlever
Posts: 31
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#39: Post by jlever »

The last time I was in Italy, over 10 years ago, an espresso, or simply, cafe, was ~1000 lire, about 70 cents, if I remember correctly. If I guess right, it's probably less than 2 euro now. If espresso is your core business, and you have the volume, it doesn't have to be expensive. In contrast, in the US, no business other than a niche coffee shop produces a decent espresso.

mathof
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#40: Post by mathof »

A single espresso (un caffè) taken standing up at the counter in centre-city bars in Italy normally costs about one euro, give or take ten cents depending how posh the place is. You will pay a lot more if you sit at a table.