Italian coffee is not ideal (to American standard), but it was actually liberating. Since I got my machine, I became extremely particular and critical about coffees (snub). Hardly satisfied with coffees from coffee shops.

We had a stop on Toronto airport. I found a nice looking bar with a legit espresso machine. I asked for a capp, and I got very hot 10 oz of something. I told the waiter that I wanted a capp, and this is more of a Latte. He talked to someone and the new person started making me another capp. I asked him specifically to make it 5-6 oz (he was using the 10 oz mug). Again, 10 oz of very light coffee for $6. Very irritating.

In Italy, after the first day of analyzing and criticizing baristas (in my head), I stopped and started enjoying the fact that there is a coffee bar in each corner. I can have an espresso whenever I want. Not much variation from one bar to another. They all use the same coffee and similar machines. Just walk in and ask the barista for "un caffè normale per favore". 1 minute later I have my shot. Leave some change and go on my way. Very liberating to have no expectations and not to have many choices. I was very satisfied.

BaristaBob wrote:Redbone,

My daughter and son-in-law are in Sicily right now for five days on a photo shoot (life style of a professional photographer). Got a cafe recommendation for them? They have been complaining that the coffee in Italy is so bad compared to mine and Australia (their home base). Maybe they need to lower their expectations?!

Sicilia is more about what gets paired with coffee rather than the coffee. Add a canolli, native varietal pistachio or almond dessert and see, feel and taste how the coffee seems that much better. Have coffee on it's own you may not be as happy and would be doing yourself a disservice. Biased as my passed grandfather was from Noto, but Caffe Sicilia will leave you with romantic memories and a longing to return. I always asked for double but not long. (Doppio ma non lungo.)

http://www.identitagolose.com/sito/en/9 ... x.html?p=0

https://www.tripadvisor.ca/ShowUserRevi ... icily.html

Peppersass wrote:Don't look for subtle flavors in Italian espresso, least of all origin flavors. The Robusta adds an interesting twist if handled the Italian way: dump lots of sugar into it and enjoy the lovely roasted coffee syrup. The coffee-soaked sugar at the bottom of the cup is particularly tasty. Don't bother with milk drinks.

If you put your coffee ego (or snobbery) aside, it's really a very pleasant experience, especially when enjoyed with a good pastry or a nice buttered roll. It made each morning of our stay very special.

Many shops in Italy do a good job with this type of espresso, far better than espresso I've had in France and Spain for example (that said, it was drinking espresso daily in Spain that got me started on my espresso journey nine years ago...) It's clearly an important part of Italian culture, only copied elsewhere. But it's nothing like what we talk about on this site.

If your set your expectations accordingly, you won't be disappointed.

This echoes my experience in Rome a couple of years ago. I found all the espresso enjoyable, in a comfort-food kind of way. And it all tasted pretty much the same. I was going to the least touristy looking cafés I could find (most of which were still pretty touristy) and was not following any special advice on where to find the best coffee.

All of it was better than anything I'd had in Paris. The espresso there was uniformly awful. Compared with NYC where I live, the Roman espresso was all better than what you'd get at the average café or restaurant, but nowhere near as interesting as what you'd get at a good 3rd wave coffee shop.

Love the Italian espresso experience. Nothing like our coffee shops. It's really a slam-and-go mentality around coffee ... the true origins of "espresso." They pretty much only have tables for the tourists ... unless you go to a ristorante/trattoria/Osteria for a meal.

Living here (Verona, Italy) I can attest to what has been said above. The espresso culture here is what it is, 5 second throw down and then run away. That's just how it works Southern parts are different though, and sometimes there I can get a good dense ristretto, which for me is the top.

"Third Wave" coffee here is still pretty much unkown, but things are moving. Places are popping up here and there. We have one in Verona for example, even though I wouldn't term it fully "3rd wave" certified but they are close. They roast their own coffee and have a bar. Good stuff.

Otherwise I know that Milan has quite a few 3rd-wave-ish places nowadays. Firenze, Bologna, Bergamo, probably Rome, and even some smaller places are following suite.

Mostly I think people just don't care enough yet. They just want their coffee, saturated with sugar, sometimes with milk, and sometimes with milk spices and chocolate, so I guess the coffee itself just has to be ok quality. I don't think I know anyone who would go out of their way to search for a particular coffee place. The closest one is the best one.

Still, I have found that the average coffee quality - talking about espresso only - here is quite OK, much better than average espresso quality anywhere else I've been, but I do avoid drinking the shots straight. Macchiato(ne) and a bit of sugar and I'm good.

I visit Italy for a while every couple of years. I was there for a month last year. I have been able to find kilo bags of whole bean bar blends in various grocery stores: (Pam and Conad specifically).
My cousin buys his coffee form the barman down the street that he has known since childhood. If you make friends with a shop owner they will probably sell you all the coffee they want at near their cost.

Italian espresso culture is definitely different than the American specialty coffee scene. While there is not nearly as much variety of coffee, it is definitely more consistent; I have always said, and continue to find it to be true, that it is easier to find a decent cup of espresso in Italy than in the US. You may never get served a shot that knocks your socks off like can happen when you get lucky in a specialty coffee shop, but you will usually get served something pleasant. If you don't simply don't return to that shop.

Also, palate preference has an effect on the type of coffee you are going to be served in various parts of the world. Most Italians simply don't like having acidic coffee; I have tested this myself. Even my cousin who likes to drink IPAs, does not want any bright fruity and floral notes in his coffee.

While staying in Italy it takes my palate a few days to adapt to the roasting styles there, but after that you can distinguish different flavors.

ojt wrote:Living here (Verona, Italy) I can attest to what has been said above.
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"Third Wave" coffee here is still pretty much unkown, but things are moving. Places are popping up here and there. We have one in Verona for example, even though I wouldn't term it fully "3rd wave" certified but they are close. They roast their own coffee and have a bar. Good stuff.

Indeed there is a growing specialty coffee community in Italy:

Last August I attended some specialty coffee training in Verona: A day at Cobelli's Coffee Training Academy

Also, in my family's city of Genova there is a specialty coffee shop near the Porto Antico that I wrote about here: Tazze Pazze, a specialty coffee shop in the historic center of Genoa

dominico wrote: Indeed there is a growing specialty coffee community in Italy:

Last August I attended some specialty coffee training in Verona: A day at Cobelli's Coffee Training Academy

Yeah I should visit those guys at some point. Maybe take a lesson or two. Actually I noticed the micro roastery I was referencing in the images you posted on the thread: Manifattura Caffè.

Actually, I think I'm off right now to go get some more beans from them. Just used 500g in a week :/

I guess it's just a matter of perception of what's good coffee.
I occasionally deal with native Italian clients, and I noticed their repulsive response to the acidic lightly roasted coffee.

Whenever I give them a dark roast, they happily remark that it finally taste like home.
Initially, thoughts came to my mind that they have a weird preference for such bitter and intense concoctions.

However, I have to concede that they are still the only bunch in the world that drinks mainly ristrettos or espressos and most of the espresso machines are still made by the Italians. The final awakeness came when my family and friends seem to prefer a darker blend than the lighter third wave blends. It starts to be ambiguous if my views were right and who is standing out naked.

Hello:

Flitzgordon wrote: ... still the only bunch in the world that drinks mainly ristrettos or espressos ...
... most of the espresso machines are still made by the Italians.

I'm quite sure they are not the only bunch.

Reading this and other similar threads during the past couple of years here at HB, it would seem that people who are into espresso are slowly beginning to come to terms with the irrefutable fact that espresso is an Italian 'thing' and that all this '3rd. wave' roasting and brewing is simply not espresso.

In any case, Italians should know.
They invented espresso and made it known worldwide.

Or what would you think of an "Italian" Tennessee straight ... ? =^D!

Cheers,

CIV

The little shop across the street from Firenze Number Nine in Florence had quite good shots when I was there last year. No other espresso in Rome, Florence or Venice was palatable to me.

That shop used local beans ground on demand and they had no obvious oil from dark roasting.