Why grind so fine for Turkish? - Page 2

Coffee preparation techniques besides espresso like pourover.
jpender (original poster)

#11: Post by jpender (original poster) »

Jonk wrote:What I do know is that the two Kinu M47 I have owned stopped feeding beans way before burr touch, something I have experienced on several other conical burr hand grinders. Maybe Comandante does better? Excruciatingly slow though..
I have the same problem with my Kinu. The burrs don't touch at zero but it doesn't matter: nothing feeds. I set it to 1.8 for Turkish (espresso is around 2.5). Even at that setting the last part of the dose is really slow. I give up at that point and empty half a gram of partially ground shards out of the top of the grinder. I weigh 8g of beans and get about 7.5g of fine grounds in 4-5 minutes.

This is part of my reason for questioning the grind size. I can grind 7.5g of beans at espresso setting in 30s without any waste.

Jonk

#12: Post by Jonk »

Sure, don't fight your grinder. Still, AFAIK 1.8 is supposedly something like a 400µm burr gap so you're really comparing coarse to coarser in relation to regular turkish grind.

jpender (original poster)

#13: Post by jpender (original poster) »

Jonk wrote:...AFAIK 1.8 is supposedly something like a 400µm burr gap...
How did you determine that?

EDIT: Okay, so it's 500µm vertical per revolution and the burrs are at roughly 60°. That doesn't quite work out to 400µm for 1.8 turns but let's just say it does. How does that predict particle size? I can spread my grounds out on a white sheet of paper and they look huge. That is, until I poke them a little. Then it's clear that they are clumps of much smaller particles. No way are they 0.4mm, not even close.

Mbb

#14: Post by Mbb »

My experience it's somewhat of a suspension of microfine particles. The larger ones are what sun is out is the sun You're always drinking caught ground coffee, it's not clear like a filtered coffee would be .. or even like cowboy coffee made with big grounds. It's quite murky muddy.

Somewhere I have a photo from a museum of very old Bedouin tools for grinding coffee beans. Quite important to people of the desert...,; Making coffee when visitors or strangers arrive is custom still today.

DamianWarS
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#15: Post by DamianWarS »

jpender wrote:So... tradition.

Before I bought my cevze I watched an hour-long video by a man named Turgay Yildizli. He's the guy behind Specialty Turkish Coffee. I bought my Soy cezve from them. He says in that video that the vast majority of coffee in Istanbul is horrible. Low quality beans, overcooked, oversweetened. It's like our tradition here with Starbucks. He promotes improved Turkish coffee methods with an emphasis on quality of ingredients and a balanced technique. I've been copying his "'recipe" and from the very first cup it has worked surprisingly well.

According to Mr. Yildizli there were no burr grinders when coffee became popular in Turkey hundreds of years ago. They used a mortar and pestle. So maybe tradition is the reason why Turkish is ground so fine. But what I want to know is whether it's necessary or even optimal.
it's the same in Indonesia, traditional coffee is called "tubruk" which is very finley ground coffee mixed directly into the cup like as if it was instant coffee. the word "tubruk" means a crash or a collision and I can only speculate but maybe that name is from the method of grinding which is a type of mortar and pestle system using large branch-like sticks hooked with knobs at the end that is lifted and then is crashed down on coffee beans until it's a powder. with systems like these, the only way to get it consistent is to pulverize it until it's all really really fine which is probably why Turkish is so fine.

Barista Hustle has released some content on it with a specialty focus (paywall) but also have a video on youtube . I've been to turkey and had some at random coffee shops but it was more of a novelty and I don't remember anything special about it, plus it was before I was really into coffee. I have yet to take the plunge but I'm tempted to pick up some soy products and take a look at the specialty-focused with it. there is a romance with it all of course since the brewing method has been around forever and the equipment and ornate cup sets all contribute to a kind of heightened experience. But espresso and pour over have these things as well

Jonk

#16: Post by Jonk »

jpender wrote:How did you determine that?

EDIT: Okay, so it's 500µm vertical per revolution and the burrs are at roughly 60°. That doesn't quite work out to 400µm for 1.8 turns but let's just say it does. How does that predict particle size? I can spread my grounds out on a white sheet of paper and they look huge. That is, until I poke them a little. Then it's clear that they are clumps of much smaller particles. No way are they 0.4mm, not even close.
"Supposedly" because I read it here: 2018 Kinu M47 Settings :D if you can explain the calculation I'm all ears.

Of course 0.4mm ought to be closer to the boulder size. Some larger particles should be able to get through the gap while a majority would be smaller, but I don't think it's reasonable to assume the peak to be at half the gap. I have tried to sieve espresso grind and even though the sieves are a limiting factor it's accurate that a majority of the grounds won't pass through 400/500µm sieves no matter how long I shake.
DamianWarS wrote:the only way to get it consistent is to pulverize it until it's all really really fine which is probably why Turkish is so fine.
That sounds like a good theory, even though it sounds like a lot of time and work.

jpender (original poster)

#17: Post by jpender (original poster) »

Jonk wrote:"Supposedly" because I read it here: 2018 Kinu M47 Settings :D if you can explain the calculation I'm all ears.

Of course 0.4mm ought to be closer to the boulder size. Some larger particles should be able to get through the gap while a majority would be smaller, but I don't think it's reasonable to assume the peak to be at half the gap. I have tried to sieve espresso grind and even though the sieves are a limiting factor it's accurate that a majority of the grounds won't pass through 400/500µm sieves no matter how long I shake.
I wonder how Renatoa came up with that?

I took another look at my burrs and realized I'd made a mistake in assuming that they are conical. The slope is about 62° on average. But it is lower near the top of the burr and steepens to about 76° at the bottom where the gap is formed. That means a setting of 1.8 would correspond to a burr gap increase of approximately 210µm above the gap at zero, whatever that is.

The question of how burr gap relates to grind distribution isn't something I will pretend to understand.

I ground some coffee with my old LIDO 1 grinder, set it to where the burrs where actually rubbing a bit. Spread on a piece of white paper the grounds looked quite large, like sand. I shook them around and they stayed that way. But when I pressed some between my fingers it was like very fine talcum powder. Those particles wanted to clump a lot more than they wanted to come apart through simple mechanical agitation. So how well does a sieve work with such particles?

I made a cup with those grounds. It tasted good. Extraction measured the same. I got a little less coffee out of the cup as the silt didn't settle as well. More work for less coffee that tasted the same. So why use the finest of fine grinds?

vit

#18: Post by vit »

I checked the grounds with a loupe on my Kinu at position around 1.5 turns, which is about lowest position that produces some output within reasonable time (it was connected with the thread about turkish coffee using espresso method). Most of it was dust, with some boulders with diameter say 0.2-0.3mm, but some of them had longer side even more than 0.5mm. Not a big deal I suppose

My LIDO 3 can't grind even that fine, even if recalibrated before grinding, which is actually needed on every settings change due to terrible free play in the threads, even if teflon tape mod is used, and the two part axis also isn't perfectly aligned on mine (although some members here reported much worse misalignment)

Interestigly, Feldgrind is better for turkish than Kinu although clearly inferior when used for espresso due to much simpler construction that is relying on self centering

But turkish Sözen hand grinder beats Kinu easily for turkish coffee, both in terms of consistency and several times higher grinding speed

jpender (original poster)

#19: Post by jpender (original poster) »

Thanks for the info about the Sözen grinder. So inexpensive: I can buy one for $35 including shipping. My Kinu and my awkward old OE LIDO 1 are far from ideal for producing a fine Turkish grind. I know Turgay Yildizli likes the Comandante but it's about 10X as expensive. So maybe I'll pick up a dedicated Turkish grinder.

But first I am going to experiment more with espresso or slightly-finer-than-espresso grinds in my cezve. If that consistently produces good results then there would be no reason for a dedicated dust-maker.

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LBIespresso
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#20: Post by LBIespresso »

Mbb wrote:How about.....

Because that is what it is......

As part of the Muslim courtship process, when a young man and his family call on a young girl and her family.... She is supposed to make coffee. She is also supposed to make it badly and add way too much sugar, etc. How the young man responds to that his indicative of what she should expect from.him. He should drink it and compliment it......... Coffee is a very important part of the culture and heritage.
I love learning about traditions like that. I had read that the prospective mother-in-law looks over the shoulder of her future daughter-in-law while she prepares it to see that the coffee foams nicely and that if the girl is not interested in the guy she adds salt to self sabotage the process. :lol:
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