Removing fines to reduce dryness? - Page 2

Coffee preparation techniques besides espresso like pourover.
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happycat

#11: Post by happycat »

heineken wrote:How so? Did your experience align with Jonks description? Would you add anything to it?
Probably. I don't remember powdery though.
LMWDP #603

DamianWarS

#12: Post by DamianWarS »

heineken wrote:Yeah I get that and it sounds great for calibrating. However, I have some experience with specific pregrinded coffee blends that are otherwise good but also taste dry and dusty, whereas others don't for whatever reason. Anyway, I was hoping I could sift out some of that dust whenever I might stumble upon it.

I've heard others say the same thing about 400-800 being too narrow or too fine for V60, and on their web page Kruve suggests 300-1000 for V60, They also have a chart where it says 600-1200 for V60, so yeah, not exactly self explanatory..

I was hoping for some agreed upon general lower range of fines I could safely sift out without losing much if anything taste wise, before looking at all other aspects to try and solve the problem. I'm a newbie and have just bought my first grinder, a Wilfa CGWS-130B. So loaded and dangerous in other words, but I might need more sifter blades to really get going. Or maybe not(?)
if you're going to sift you need to experiment with different results to determine what you like best and there is no specific range that is agreed upon. kruve has their suggestions and that's probably the closest you're going to get with regards to a statement about which sifted range you should be aiming for. I may have an earlier model but my kruve says a pour over its 400-800um and there is no V60 suggestion but I never liked the results from it. James Hoffmann did a video on it and he seems to have the same model as mine since it also recommends the 400-800um range. he broadly doesn't recommend it to compensate for your grinder because there's a lot of waste but it seems you're ok with that, overall it's hard to get a clear opinion from him but he seems to think they work and if useful for experimenting.

Perger is quoted saying "for every single grind with a diameter above 100 microns, there's one hundred million with a diameter below 100 microns". I'm not sure where he gets that information from (it's unsourced) or that he's qualified to make that statement but if true that means below 100um, which is already quite fine, there is a whole lot more and these micro fines will be contributing a lot to extraction because they have a lot more surface area (combined total) than probably the rest of the coffee. so when you remove the fines it can create an unbalanced and lacking cup, at least that has been my experience. Barista Hustle has made a neat visual aid to help understand the relationship between different particle sizes and extraction time. The scale on it is relative so it's not about declaring a specific extraction time but rather smaller particle sizes extraction quicker than larger. Barista Hustle also talks of an extraction floor advocating that our focus should be about sifting out the boulders, not the fines.

in the end you will have to judge what you like and what you don't like. you could sieve a whole pile of coffee then make little recipes to see what tastes the best for you. what probably is better is experimenting with getting rid of the boulders and fines then adding some of the fines back in to restore that balance. you can regrind the boulders so it doesn't have to be all waste but just be careful as it can jam the machine so add a little at a time to see how your grinder handles it.

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mkane
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#13: Post by mkane »

Dryness, that scratchiness in the roof of your mouth is a roast defect.

heineken (original poster)

#14: Post by heineken (original poster) »

DamianWarS wrote:if you're going to sift you need to experiment with different results to determine what you like best and there is no specific range that is agreed upon.
Thanks for confirming
DamianWarS wrote:my kruve says a pour over its 400-800um and there is no V60 suggestion
Wait, isn't pour over and V60 the same?
DamianWarS wrote:Perger is quoted saying "for every single grind with a diameter above 100 microns, there's one hundred million with a diameter below 100 microns". I'm not sure where he gets that information from (it's unsourced) or that he's qualified to make that statement but if true that means below 100um, which is already quite fine, there is a whole lot more and these micro fines will be contributing a lot to extraction because they have a lot more surface area (combined total) than probably the rest of the coffee. so when you remove the fines it can create an unbalanced and lacking cup, at least that has been my experience.
I can see how a very strict and narrow range could taste too strong or unnatural. Still, wouldn't very fine particles be over extracted in a relatively slow brew such as with a dripper or V60 and therefore generally be undesirable, especially when the amount is bigger than it should due to a subpar grinder? I thought much of the advantage with «professional» coffeemakers was uniform grinding. If so then it seems like it would makes sense sifting out some fines and boulders would improve taste(?)
DamianWarS wrote:Barista Hustle also talks of an extraction floor advocating that our focus should be about sifting out the boulders, not the fines.
Interesting
DamianWarS wrote:you can regrind the boulders so it doesn't have to be all waste but just be careful as it can jam the machine so add a little at a time to see how your grinder handles it.
Thanks for the heads up

bobR

#15: Post by bobR »

I'll put my two cents in, most of which has been addressed in earlier posts. First caveat is that I only experimented with removing fines, I did not remove coarse particles. Second caveat is that I have a Comandante grinder and my results may not equate to lower quality or other grinders. My results after many tests were that removing all fines 400 microns and below, 300 microns below or 200 microns and below did not improve the cup quality to my tastes. There was less complexity and no noticeable improvements. And that was after optimizing procedures for each brew made with particular sifting. Adding back various percentages of fines was better than total removal but still no perceptible improvement over no sifting. I tend to agree with another comment that it may be better to upgrade the grinder rather than sifting but with the information provided, I can't be sure of that. There may be more optimization required with your current procedures as well...grind size, water temp, brew time, etc. I was very excited about sifting and was expecting/hoping for some big gains but I just didn't see it and the screens sit in a closet and I'm very happy with the Comandante performance.