dale_cooper wrote:So I wanted to bump this old thread because it shares many struggles or thoughts I have regarding the proliferation of flavor notes, techniques, and everything else, contingent upon the use of an EK43 or other similar high end grinder.

I don't feel like extracting coffee should be so hard with a LIDO ET (a dang good consumer oriented grinder)..... but it is.


I have every pour over cone imaginable and still struggle with extraction or dialing in a proper technique. Suggested brew times for 350-400g of water seems to be 3:00-3:45. For me to do this, I either have to grind fine to the point of having a muddy bed, which usually is overextracted coffee. Or I need to grind coarser, and pulse pour in a way that usually results in a dry bed between pours. Can anyone help me with this struggle? I feel like extracting coffee to get a truly good cup is very difficult, and many vidoes and guides online make it sound so straight forward.

I'd be very fascinated to see pictures of grind size, both before adding water, and the finished bed after your brew.

For a larger 16 oz brew with 450 g water I need a larger and grind most seem to recommend for pour over to get it to taste like I want it to taste. I grind coarser and my pours are still quick in the 2:15-2:45 range. I pour constant and have no issues getting that kind of time, I quit pouring somewhere around the 1:45-2:00 and VO2 is mostly full, and let it drain down. Swirling or shaking a tad to get grounds off the wall to settle.

I'm not recommending my technique, just saying it produces coffee I like. Drinking this much coffee twice a day I like my coffee slightly on the non acidic side so that it doesn't produce stomach cramps or undesirable side effects. I'm just saying I have no problems getting any time for extraction that's desirable. I can do it from 1.5 minutes to 5 minutes so I really don't understand what the difficulty is. You're in control of how fast you pour the water. The grind size affect how fast it drains. And you're simply trying to keep a relatively constant level in the cone, or with some techniques maybe not

I also use a full kettle of water that keeps the water temperature as constant as possible, around 200 I keep a digital thermometer in the kettle water and it only cools off two to three degrees. A smaller amount of water the water in the kettle can be 193 by the time it's actually poured at the end probably making it about 185 into the cone . While working in a very low humidity location, I've noticed that this cooling is dramatically quicker than it is at home in humid region. Doesn't affect pour time but sure does affect the result.

I would stick with one cone, the Hario V60 02, and find a grind size that works with an even continuous pour that gets you in the time range you looking for, before start doing things like pulse pouring, etc. You need a baseline to compare the results from those styles to in my mind. It may be improved, but I view a continuous pour as a Baseline. Even with the same grind side you can get differing time just by how full you run the level in the cone. I'd say my level with a constant pour, is slowly increasing , and reaches the highest point when I'm done pouring and ready to let it drain down

dale_cooper wrote:So I wanted to bump this old thread because it shares many struggles or thoughts I have regarding the proliferation of flavor notes, techniques, and everything else, contingent upon the use of an EK43 or other similar high end grinder.

I don't feel like extracting coffee should be so hard with a LIDO ET (a dang good consumer oriented grinder)..... but it is.


I have every pour over cone imaginable and still struggle with extraction or dialing in a proper technique. Suggested brew times for 350-400g of water seems to be 3:00-3:45. For me to do this, I either have to grind fine to the point of having a muddy bed, which usually is overextracted coffee. Or I need to grind coarser, and pulse pour in a way that usually results in a dry bed between pours. Can anyone help me with this struggle? I feel like extracting coffee to get a truly good cup is very difficult, and many vidoes and guides online make it sound so straight forward.

I'd be very fascinated to see pictures of grind size, both before adding water, and the finished bed after your brew.

Looking back now I think its easy to get caught up in thinking its the equipment when really its the person doing the brewing often. This was the case with myself for a while, over analyzing and changing too many variables when figuring things out. Doing it all again I may have just kept my virtuoso or vario with steel burrs.

Something I've learned that hopefully you will be open to. Forget about brew times and draw down times and how the bed looks for a while. Those are all byproducts and should not be part of your actually recipe for a pour over. My better coffees often have stalled draw downs and can take 2-3 minutes to draw down on a Kalita for example.

What I am saying is you need to simplify and pick a repeatable recipe [Coffee dose in, brew water dose in, bloom dose (w or WO agitation) and your pouring regiment, etc.]. Literally design a recipe that will not change anything other than your grind size. That's the only change. And the only thing that decides a grind change is taste.. NOT brew time or drawn downs, or muddy beds.

I've done a lot of refractometry to know that extraction almost halts after agitation stops and fresh water is done being added. Which means, draw down time is meaningless. Additionally, it is highly influenced by the coffee bean, roast and brewing method. In fact I think one of the worst things I did for my learning was getting a refractometer because for a while I was chasing a number first then tasting. It took a while to figure out that was a horrible way to go about it. Thats a whole different thread though.

Learning how to cup coffees was very helpful to me! It takes so many variables out of play and shows you what the coffee and grinder can actually do without the "user" mucking it up.

Thanks Ryan...

I wish some of us Ohio guys could meet up some day, several of us uber geeks (9sbeans, moxiechef, etc) and it would be really fun to sample roasts and brews.

I like your advice but find it difficult because different beans and roast levels will "throw off" a recipe. I've tried changing grind by taste, in fact a similar "trap" can arise when it comes to coffee roasting techniques. I actually utilize a technivorm cup one now because I don't want to rely upon excessive variables in manual pour over - cone, grind, pouring technique, water temp, etc.

That said, all too often I can never get a good "dialed in" cup - i grind too fine, its not clean or its too chocolatey and overextracted. I coarsen up a bit and it could be underextracted and a bit too sour. I've literally seemingly changed nothing with the pouring technique and will get a completely different cup. I think I actually expect too much sometimes out of drip coffee. ON THE OTHERHAND - (and I normally try to use third wave water) - the importance of water quality or recipe seems so paramount to everything else its amazing. Over the weekend, while at my father's house and using his water (whole house water softener with RO system under the sink) beans which were "bleh", were transformed into quite an amazing cup. So much so it actually made me mad because this whole time I thought it was my roasting.

Have you tried cupping your coffees then instead of brewing them? If you can get good tasting cups with your grinder and roasts then its something you are doing wrong while brewing. What about other coffee roasters rather than your own.

dale_cooper, thanks for bumping this thread. It was a good read.

I too have struggled with my brewing. Mostly since I got my La Pavoni and am enjoying really great espresso. After about 6 months of owning the LP, I decided to make a pour over. Hated it. I couldn't believe it was made with the same coffee. I then went into cupping everything I roasted. The cups were also not that tasty by comparison to espressos with same beans. At some point, I decided to buy some roasted and green beans from a decent roaster. The roasted beans were high rated and the greens were the identical beans used for their roast. I roasted and cupped both. To my amazement, I liked my roast best! And neither cup were nearly as good as the espressos made from the same. Bottom line, I learned that tasting coffee can get very distorted depending apon other coffees/brew methods you might be accustomed too. Now a year or so later, I'm still struggling with what is that great tasting coffee and how to brew it (other than espresso). But getting away from your own roasts and even brewing by visiting a reputable coffee shop is definitely informative. For me, it helps re-align my tastes to a baseline. Changing your normal brew method for a month or two may alter your expectations a bit too. That overextracted or bland brew may come to light after tasting other brews for a while.

Back to pour overs. I too have a Lido E. I think it works great with my La Pavoni. It is WAY better than other cheaper grinders I have used in my past with brewing. I think it is capable of a nice pour over. I've made some pretty decent pour overs with my dripper using it. I think my grind setting is around 10, espresso around 3.

Lastly, I agree it would be way cool to have a get together. SCA Expo is in Boston next year. Perhaps I can host a get together in the Boston area for HB'ers !!

If it wasn't mentioned already, the paper used in the pour over brew also matters. This is particularly an issue with the Hario V60 filters as they have different versions. I found it could have up to a minute brew time difference just from the filter alone.

Ejquin wrote:3:00 - 3:45 sounds long to me, especially for something like a v60. I have a Lido 3 and make pretty good pourover and my times are closer to 2:15. I mainly use Scott Rao's method here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0Qe_ASxfNM

I've found that's the easiest and most consistent v60 method.


Also, with the Lido, I find it's good, but not great for pourover. Creates too many fines. One thing I've done to correct this is I actually do no static retention correction - so after i grind, I don't tap the grinder down to release trapped grinds, and when I pour from the grinder "cup" into the v60, I also don't tap hard to get all of the grinds out. I find the static causes a lot of the finer grinds to stick, and then they do not end up in the brewer. The downside is you waste coffee, but it's not too much.

3:45 second is actually not long. My brewing time is usually plus 3min, at the moment my brewtime is 3.25 on a V60 1cup and the exact same brewing time on a wave 1cup.

Basically you don't need a different technique on a v60 nor different amount of pours, flow etc. if you do exactly the same thing across the two brewer you get exactly the same brewing time and almost identical taste although with a slightly different balance.

Grind setting should not give a differet brewing time either,I can grind at setting 6,5, 7,5 and 8,5 and getting exactly the same brewing time with exactly the same flow out of the kettle.

This might be an flatburr thing? But bulk grinders and Vario with steel burrs, grindsize should only result in different balance and extraction, not time.

Rao method only works with dark roasted or darker roasted coffee. Do not grind coarse with ligher roasted coffee, also use boiling water as Perger surgest this bring out more deeper flavours.

The most important thing is to be consistent in what you're doing, don't jump from one brewing technique to another, that is the wrong approach and will only lead to inconsistency. Find a pouring regime that works for you and stick to it, don't get influenced by what coffee gurus say, they're you, they don't brew with your water or use your coffee or grinder. Only use them as an inspiration not as a guide.

Unfortunately there are many myths in the coffee industry, and this is why i like Perger, not because he is necessarily right in all he has to say, but because he has the guts to challenge those myths, traditions and the industry as a whole.

Have confidence in what you do, keep on doing it untill you perfection it, at some time all brews with same coffee will have the same brewing time, taste etc. It's very easy to get caught up with all those baristas ideas, but that usually only lead to confusion and inconsistencies. You can incorporate some of their ideas such as tapping the brewer, spin and aggitation with a spoon if it make sence for you.but one need to realise those technique requires practice and time.