Precise, filtered immersion brewing = superior to pour over? - Page 2

Coffee preparation techniques besides espresso like pourover.
Brien

#11: Post by Brien »

I would say as finicky as V60s are I far prefer the brighter cups they produce vs a French Press.

I do wonder if the Hario Switch or similar could be a bridge to both worlds. Some kind of immersion extended bloom.

jpender

#12: Post by jpender »

dsc106 wrote:I would also like to add this article:

https://coffeeadastra.com/2019/07/16/wh ... different/

Which seems to indicate that the flavor difference in percolation may be a result of "cutting extraction short" and having some easier to extract flavors over represented in any percolation method, whereas in immersion you can extract the essence of the coffee more reliably and then merely filter for a clean cup?

I read that article a while back and a couple of things struck me. First is that it is entirely theoretical, which he readily admits ("I will need a mass spectrometer to prove it"). Second, I don't recall him making any pronouncement about which is better. He says that immersion should produce coffee that "will very closely reflect the chemical composition that was initially in the coffee bean" whereas a percolation brew will be biased toward compounds that extract more quickly. But who is to say that you would prefer the unbiased profile? Coffee brewing is about selectively extracting compounds. Why would it necessarily be the case that you'd want to extract everything evenly?

And isn't Gagné a big fan of pour overs?

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DamianWarS
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#13: Post by DamianWarS »

dsc106 wrote:I would also like to add this article:

https://coffeeadastra.com/2019/07/16/wh ... different/

Which seems to indicate that the flavor difference in percolation may be a result of "cutting extraction short" and having some easier to extract flavors over represented in any percolation method, whereas in immersion you can extract the essence of the coffee more reliably and then merely filter for a clean cup?

You could also achieve a much higher EY without channeling or inconsistent extraction?

And one more: here Scott Rao says he wishes more shops would just use a clever:

https://www.scottrao.com/blog/2016/10/8 ... hand-pours

Now, what I still couldn't get at was why Rao would prefer a hard to obtain perfect percolation extraction over a filtered immersion? What is the science behind that? Perhaps with a re evaluation and debate with Gagne he would be shown otherwise, that perhaps he would always prefer to an immersion if the immersion was dialed in and filtered optimally in all parameters? Or that the preference may merely be coffee specific and that he may actually be *enjoying* the "over representation" of certain flavors in a percolation brew?

Could what we have been calling "clarity" in pour over actually just be over representation of certain easy to extract bright solubles?

What am I missing?
In Gagne's latest Patreon blog be talks about the recent aeropress series from JH and although he talks about them in the poisitive he concludes the whole blog essentially saying it's being wasteful (but he doesn't connect the dots back to JH) He advocates for a fine grind, probably just above espresso, and a 10 min brew. He's using the prismo to do it and he stirs back and forth (not circular) puts the plunger on, the mid way point does a swirl and plunges at about 9 min, very slowly, it takes him a full min to plunge and claims the key is maintaining a flat bed.

Gagne is an interesting guy and I appreciate his willingness to not just do what everyone else is doing plus his science background he can bring. JH's highly anticipated aeropress video was somewhat anticlimactic especially since he really built it up with his 5 video series. (That's probably why he did the long series because his method alone wasn't entertaining enough, that and I think he was being factitious). I love his videos and I usually stop what I'm doing when a new video comes up to watch it but did you get the feeling after this method "really, that's it?".

Hoffmann I think effectively demonstrates the eye candy of coffee and people like these brewers because they are new and exciting where a press pot is not. Afterall we taste with our eyes first.

coffeeOnTheBrain

#14: Post by coffeeOnTheBrain »

jpender wrote: I read that article a while back and a couple of things struck me. First is that it is entirely theoretical, which he readily admits ("I will need a mass spectrometer to prove it"). Second, I don't recall him making any pronouncement about which is better. He says that immersion should produce coffee that "will very closely reflect the chemical composition that was initially in the coffee bean" whereas a percolation brew will be biased toward compounds that extract more quickly. But who is to say that you would prefer the unbiased profile? ...
Very well put. Especially the next sentences!
jpender wrote:...
Coffee brewing is about selectively extracting compounds. Why would it necessarily be the case that you'd want to extract everything evenly?
...
About you last sentence though. I am not do sure if Gagne actually likes pour over or rather how it traditionally tastes.
jpender wrote: And isn't Gagné a big fan of pour overs?
I appreciate Gagne, a lot actually. It is always a great read and he always describes an outstanding and original thought.
Does he really like pour over though? He seems to advocate for brew methods like his Stagg X brew method or the Tricolate. Both lead to brews that are actually really close to immersion taste profiles rather than pour over. I mean sure these brew methods are pour over and yes the TDS is out there, but how is the taste?
I tried both extensively and to me the taste is less balanced, lacking complexity, basically it is a bit plump. Back to not off topic, yes this is my answer to this threads question. You are missing balance, complexity and maybe even great fruity notes. Of course this might not matter depending on your taste preference.

My impression of Gagne's methods might be influenced by my grinder choice a Comandante, but aren't his impressions influenced by his grinder choice as well. Maybe I have overlooked it, but I never read him talking about this pretty major constraint.

jpender

#15: Post by jpender »

coffeeOnTheBrain wrote:About you last sentence though. I am not do sure if Gagne actually likes pour over or rather how it traditionally tastes.
I wasn't stating that, I was asking. He does seem to have a lot of blog posts about V60 and Chemex, trying work out the best techniques. I thought that might mean that pour over is a favorite method of his.

Ejquin
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#16: Post by Ejquin »

Yes Jonathon did a number of articles and videos on V60, which was his preferred method for a long time, before switching to the Stagg. Also, he mentions his grinder, the EG-1 with Ultra burrs, all the time and he often states how the lack of fines from it may limit his recommendations relevance to others.

jdrobison

#17: Post by jdrobison »

I used to brew full immersion exclusively, whether press pot or Clever, but changed my method to pour over some 7 or 8 years ago. When I did, I was finding flavors in my brews that went previously undetected. I was enjoying my coffee considerably more without quite understanding why. Later, I was reading about how the water reaches a point where it's holding as much of the immersed solluble as it can and, therefore, unable to extract more goodness from the coffee. And apparently, as I recall, the time it took for that to occur wasn't very long. Since then I even changed my pour over technique so that I'm introducing fresh water throughout the pour, rather than dumping it all in for a long draw down.

Is there truth and science in that? I don't know and didn't bother to research it. I just decided that must be why I enjoy my coffee so much more after switching from full immersion to pour over.

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Jonk

#18: Post by Jonk »

To some extent it's about what you're used to. I was only brewing press pot for years, life was simple and the overall quality was always good.

Then I started brewing pour over coffee because it felt like a fun challenge to explore. It's definitely more demanding of both equipment and technique. It was not love at the first sip. New grinders, new kettles, new drippers, new filters, new recipes, new routines and so on in that quest Jim mentions. The highs are higher, but the lows are so low that I'm pretty sure average quality has suffered. Problem is, now I don't enjoy press pot that much anymore. Filtered immersion brewing is closer but still feels like it's missing something..

For me, the best of both worlds has been cezve/ibrik brewed right: https://www.specialtyturkishcoffee.com/ ... eparation/
Bright, clean, fast, easy and consistent. You could filter it if you really wanted but it will not add anything to the quality in my opinion. Just drink it fresh and in small sips.

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LBIespresso
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#19: Post by LBIespresso »

Jonk wrote:
For me, the best of both worlds has been cezve/ibrik brewed right: https://www.specialtyturkishcoffee.com/ ... eparation/
Bright, clean, fast, easy and consistent. You could filter it if you really wanted but it will not add anything to the quality in my opinion. Just drink it fresh and in small sips.
I just got this setup and have been playing around with it. Haven't had a bad cup yet! Surprisingly clean and not as aggressive as I expected. Ground finer than espresso I was expecting something similar to espresso but with more punch. My experience has been somewhere between espresso and pour over for mouth feel and great flavor separation. I have been grinding with Kafatek Max with LU burrs and a flat with SSW burrs but not side by side so tough to compare.
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Jonk

#20: Post by Jonk »

Nice to hear we have the same experience. I'm using the Niche set to 0 and it works a treat. Almost espresso "coarse" is also fine.