High sodium, low pH water treatment solutions?

August 17th, 2017, 1:05 am

Hi guys, I have really bad mineral content where I'm at. My current water set up is:

Carbon Block to RO, then the blend is 50/50ish RO + Carbon Block(tap).

The result is:

70ish GH
30ish KH
6pH

My water tastes chalky and dry before I brew coffee with it.

I don't know how to measure sodium, but the water report from my reservoir says there is an average of 45ppm.

Is this causing the taste? Or is it the low pH?

https://www.amazon.com/Everpure-Neutral ... B0091Z1Y9G

If I throw that in the mix, can I raise my pH and then use 75/25 RO water by assuming it may increase my GH level?

Thanks!

#2: Post by **Peppersass** » August 17th, 2017, 5:02 pm

The hardness and alkalinity look fine for avoiding scale, but I'd be concerned about the low PH. Acidic water is not good for espresso machines. It can corrode the parts.

Which RO system are you using? Some RO systems use hydrogen ion substitution, which under certain circumstances (like high chloride content in the water) can produce acidic water that's very bad for your machine.

I can't comment on how effective the Everpure cartridge would be. Depends on how it works. I would call them for advice.

What are the hardness and alkalinity readings of your tap water? You might try mixing in more tap water to get the pH closer to 7 or even a little higher. If the alkalinity is low enough you might get away with higher hardness and still avoid scaling. If you haven't already, read Jim Schulman's Insanely Long Water FAQ. It has a discussion of the role played by alkalinity in scaling.

The sodium content shouldn't be a problem and I doubt you can taste it at that low level. I use a cation softener, which reduces my ~200 ppm hardness by substituting sodium ions for calcium ions. Presumably, this gives me water that's at least 200 ppm sodium. But I don't taste the salt at all. Again, Jim's FAQ discusses this.

I suspect the chalky taste of your water may be due to other chemicals added by the local water treatment facility. Do you have a complete report on the reservoir water?

August 17th, 2017, 11:50 pm

Thanks!

pH of the tap is 6 as well.

Everpure seems to think that will help the pH, I think it will help, but I'm not completely confident it will solve the whole issue.

Water report:

Sodium: 30-60ppm
Hardness: 133-217ppm
Alkalinity: 46-94ppm
Chlorine: 1.57-3.51ppm

I remember my la marzocco test strips reading 200-300ppm of chloride on tap. Could that be a possibility that I'm overlooking?

#4: Post by **homeburrero** » August 18th, 2017, 1:00 pm

Chloride is likely a problem and probably your biggest challenge. The test strips aren't very accurate, so you probably want to call your water utility, but I'm pretty sure it's high. It may spike in the winter from road salt use. Here's one report from a beer brewer in your area that did make that call and got 92 ppm (chloride ion) for the Schuylkill river-Queen Lane plant: http://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=155720 . There is an online water report for your area here: http://www.phila.gov/water/wu/water%20q ... uality.pdf , but it's 2014 and doesn't have numbers for chloride, sulfate, or even pH.

It's good that you're using an RO system, which is the practical way to deal with high chloride. Even if you adjust your bypass down to 75:25, at ~90 ppm you would only drop to ~20-30 ppm chloride, which close to the upper limit of the La Marzocco recommendation. (Synesso recommends less than 15, and if your pH and alkalinity are low your potential for corrosion gets even worse.)

I think you may be breaking new ground with that Everpure/Pentair 7NE magnesium oxide cartridge. It does make a lot of sense in your case because it will increase your pH and your alkalinity. It will also increase your GH measure, but keep in mind that it is increasing magnesium and not calcium hardness, so you have to allow for that when estimating scale. At 80% or more RO your calcium hardness should drop low enough that scale should not be a problem even if the cartridge bumps the GH:KH numbers pretty high. (Note that the tables in the Insane water FAQ estimate scale rates using an assumption that most or all of your hardness is calcium hardness.)

If you buy and install that filter be sure to report back for us. It will be very informative to see your GH and KH measures before and after using this filter. It's interesting to me that Pentair doesn't market that filter as a re-mineralizer in their RO systems for coffee machines. There's good tech info on it here: http://foodservice.pentair.com/~/media/ ... -Sheet.pdf .

thepilgrimsdream wrote:pH of the tap is 6 as well.

Is that number from the water utility people? Seems oddly low (acidic) for a water with that much alkalinity, and doesn't agree with the beer brewer's numbers that I linked above. If it's your own measurement perhaps you need to look into the accuracy of your measurement. The pH of your water will have an effect on how much mineral you get out of that Everpure 7NE cartridge, as well as how often you'll need to replace it.

P.S.
The chemistry of the MgO approach is pretty straightforward:
MgO + H₂O → Mg(OH)₂
Mg(OH)₂ + 2H₂CO₃ → Mg(HCO₃)₂ + 2H₂O

Carbonic acid is neutralized, raising the pH, and alkalinity and magnesium are increased.

August 18th, 2017, 4:17 pm

Installed the 7NE

Carbon Block -> 7NE -> RO @ 100%

70ish GH
30ish KH
pH 8

Everything tastes juicier and sweeter.

There is a slight salty taste, but it still allows for other flavors to come thru and isn't as dry.

My RO unit is rated to filter out 75-80% of mineral content.

I may upgrade to the Everpure RO System to filter out 90% of minerals and then put the 7NE after to boost the pH and GH after if I cannot find another way to lower the chloride anymore.

I'll call the water dept and ask the chloride and sulfate levels.

Thanks guys,

Open to anymore suggestions you may have.

Highly recommend the 7NE so far, coffee tastes way better, no known side effects.

#6: Post by **homeburrero** » August 21st, 2017, 4:27 pm

Thanks for reporting back, DJ ... always great to see some actual numbers and these do look pretty good.

thepilgrimsdream wrote:Carbon Block -> 7NE -> RO @ 100%

Was that the Pentair recommendation? I think I would have chosen to put the 7NE last, after the RO filter like you would do with a conventional remin filter.

#7: Post by **Lacoffee** » August 21st, 2017, 4:43 pm

homeburrero wrote:Thanks for reporting back, DJ ... always great to see some actual numbers and these do look pretty good.

Was that the Pentair recommendation? I think I would have chosen to put the 7NE last, after the RO filter like you would do with a conventional remin filter.

+1

August 21st, 2017, 11:06 pm

homeburrero wrote:Thanks for reporting back, DJ ... always great to see some actual numbers and these do look pretty good.

Was that the Pentair recommendation? I think I would have chosen to put the 7NE last, after the RO filter like you would do with a conventional remin filter.

Yep, Pentair!

My Chloride is still too high and effecting the taste. I need to get more test strips before I can get more numbers, but I can taste it.

I have a softener(currently bypassed). It uses Sodium Chloride.

It may seem self defeating, but I may introduce it again to take the hit from the incoming mineral content and just allowing my RO to filter out mostly the Chloride(less calcium and other junk).

I'll add the 7NE after that as the mineral cartridge to boost the pH and GH and see if it's any more effective, maybe put a blend