Finding balanced cup in pour over (V60). - Page 11

Coffee preparation techniques besides espresso like pourover.
dale_cooper

Postby dale_cooper » Feb 06, 2019, 5:44 pm

Regarding tasting good cups - I went to a crimson cup event and had quite a tasty v60 which surprised me. It surprised me because 90% of pour overs I've had from cafe's - have been BLAH and no where near properly extracted. Which is why its funny when people act like brewing coffee is difficult. Either they don't brew light roasts, or they've never had a really good BREW (or roast) of one.

Personally Crimson Cup's model is a bit different and doesn't really align to my personality. I also think a "roaster of the year" with a Q grader on staff should do MUCH more to showcase their "art" aka coffee and do regular public cuppings for free. Especially with them having an innovation lab. Instead, CC is focused on their business customers and supporting them, not the general public.

All that said, I'm regularly let down by commercially roasted coffee so I raaaarely buy it as I'm quite satisfied with my own roasts. OR if I do buy it, I'm buying an espresso blend.



Ok that rabbit trail out of the way - onto UNDER vs OVER

I don't know - I personally feel I do know what under vs over extracted tastes like, and when I made the shift to grind finer this morning, the over extracted notes increased. Over the past 4 pours these last 2 days, I've covered the spectrum, I really do not believe they're all underextracted. That said in the spirit of science and having no ego, I could certainly try a very fine grind.

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LBIespresso

Postby LBIespresso » Feb 06, 2019, 6:13 pm

Almico wrote:Hobbyists might have very different goals, but until one can get to the point where they ... get consistent results, they have no business trying for accidental coffee nirvana.


I'm guilty of that :oops:
I like coffee. I like coffee people. LMWDP #580

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jesse

Postby jesse » Feb 07, 2019, 9:22 am

I've been doing immersion brews for the past few months almost exclusively due to laziness and/or busyness, but this thread has prompted a hand pour resurgence of late. v60s, Waves, anywhere from standard pulsing, to Alan's prescribed method, to straight up continuous pour and nearly everywhere in between.

Here's my completely unscientific, totally subjective, utterly anecdotal, artisinal data, for whatever it's worth:

I was able to get good brews from all methods with the requisite tweaking of a variable here or there. To my palate, though, Matt Perger's old v60 prep consistently tasted the best.

I'm really interested in the Melodrop, though, and Scott Rao's recent IG posts about v60 brews w/ the DE1 only further that curiosity.

dale_cooper

Postby dale_cooper » Feb 07, 2019, 11:45 am

So I'm stumped.... part of this is now identifying potential unique things about using the bonmac and no2 filters vs the v60 (cause I'm out of v60 filters)

2 more brews this morning.

The first was doing a coarse grind that looks similar to what Alan was using in his video. And actually, it's about the same grind I use for 750g chemex batches. I used 208F water, because from prior experiments, I knew I should do this to avoid underextraction. Oddly, the draw down time was not THAT much quicker. I think the melitta filters are controlling the flow a decent bit. This cup was not great, but it wasn't bad. I would call it pleasant. It definitely did not have "sharp" or "brash" notes lingering. It was a bit underextracted but not bad - moderate sweetness, relatively round feel, but was missing the pop of florals. I actually feel this may be a really good grind and brew method for beans that are more developed - Full city range. I have a batch of uganda beans which are more in that roast level which I would like to try. There's definitely something to this "coarse grind methodology".


Second batch was to try what Ryan said - I went considerably more fine. I used 202F for my water because from prior experiments I knew this would be overextracted if I didn't lower my temp. This draw down was actually not as slow as you would've imagined (very surprising). I may have not done as many pulse pours; so that could've led to a quicker draw down. Checking my notes yesterday - this was more fine than the "fine" batch yesterday, but had a quicker drawn down, implying that my pour rate was quicker. Somehow this wasn't a bad cup, and I fully expected it to be. This had less acidity or underextracted taste (good), but introduced some harsh notes. Still no floral pop.


This has all been interesting - I think at this point, it really could be my roast. At 4 days post roast, the roast was just right and I may have gotten lucky with a really good brew. No cup has come close to that mark. Next time I roast this sudan rume I'm going really light.

Finally experimentation with the 150g I have left of this roast; I will certainly try to do a french press which seems to work VERY well for light roasts (in my opinion).

dale_cooper

Postby dale_cooper » Feb 08, 2019, 12:13 pm

One more follow up post ...

Late last night, in the spirit of science and experimentation - I brewed the last little bit of my uganda beans which are more developed than the colombia sudan rume, and which I hypothesized would work nicely in Alan's coarse grind brew method....

Now because it was 10:30 I was only really slurping this brew and spitting it.... but it was QUITE satisfying and pleasant. Seriously makes me wonder how many of my brews in the past in that city+/full city range (2:00-3:00 of dev) would've benefited from this method.

Back to the sudan rume - I did a small french press batch this morning. Sweeter, or tasted sweeter cause acidity was muted. Not alot of clarity in the cup but it was probably better than any of the "bleh" pour overs I attempted. I think there really is something to doing light light roasts in immersion method. Meanwhile - I pulled a shot for the first time of that sudan rume - holy crap, screw pour over. Immensely satisfying; I may have started dancing. :lol:

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Almico

Postby Almico » Feb 08, 2019, 1:23 pm

dale_cooper wrote:Now because it was 10:30 I was only really slurping this brew and spitting it.... but it was QUITE satisfying and pleasant. Seriously makes me wonder how many of my brews in the past in that city+/full city range (2:00-3:00 of dev) would've benefited from this method.


And try some of those 3:00 coffees with the same grind and 195* water and see what happens. You can even bloom a darker roast with room temp water and then finish with 185. Very sweet and smooth.

Trying to squeeze the last flavor nuance out of a roast bangs you up against the point where undesirables start extracting with the good stuff. You might pull out a nice bergamot note, but at the price of a dry, astrigient cup.

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wrz0170

Postby wrz0170 » Feb 08, 2019, 9:59 pm

Just to chime in to say thanks for this thread and thanks to Almico, following a couple of suggestions he posted. I Was struggling a bit with my V60. Went with 15:1 ratio and four pours after the initial 50g/30 sec bloom for a target 2;30 total. Have a bit of grinder tweaking but I was close. My bed was flat for the first time. In the cup, it was decent! Since I can adjust the temps on my Stagg kettle, I will adjust to see where the sweet spot is. So to speak.

Anyway thanks!

William

RyanJE

Postby RyanJE » Feb 08, 2019, 10:39 pm

dale_cooper wrote:So I'm stumped.... part of this is now identifying potential unique things about using the bonmac and no2 filters vs the v60 (cause I'm out of v60 filters)

2 more brews this morning.

The first was doing a coarse grind that looks similar to what Alan was using in his video. And actually, it's about the same grind I use for 750g chemex batches. I used 208F water, because from prior experiments, I knew I should do this to avoid underextraction. Oddly, the draw down time was not THAT much quicker. I think the melitta filters are controlling the flow a decent bit. This cup was not great, but it wasn't bad. I would call it pleasant. It definitely did not have "sharp" or "brash" notes lingering. It was a bit underextracted but not bad - moderate sweetness, relatively round feel, but was missing the pop of florals. I actually feel this may be a really good grind and brew method for beans that are more developed - Full city range. I have a batch of uganda beans which are more in that roast level which I would like to try. There's definitely something to this "coarse grind methodology".


Second batch was to try what Ryan said - I went considerably more fine. I used 202F for my water because from prior experiments I knew this would be overextracted if I didn't lower my temp. This draw down was actually not as slow as you would've imagined (very surprising). I may have not done as many pulse pours; so that could've led to a quicker draw down. Checking my notes yesterday - this was more fine than the "fine" batch yesterday, but had a quicker drawn down, implying that my pour rate was quicker. Somehow this wasn't a bad cup, and I fully expected it to be. This had less acidity or underextracted taste (good), but introduced some harsh notes. Still no floral pop.


This has all been interesting - I think at this point, it really could be my roast. At 4 days post roast, the roast was just right and I may have gotten lucky with a really good brew. No cup has come close to that mark. Next time I roast this sudan rume I'm going really light.

Finally experimentation with the 150g I have left of this roast; I will certainly try to do a french press which seems to work VERY well for light roasts (in my opinion).


I've made / drank about 3 v60s a day for 4-5 years now and I see consistent draw down times when changing grind coarse or fine, it doesn't change much. I mentioned earlier but I think the vast majority of what decides draw down is the bean itself and how you pour your water / late agitation. I have two filter coffees right now, both even guats and one usually finishes around 3:30 and the other 2:45 without changing anything else. It doesn't affect the taste. This is the reason I stopped chasing total brew times and just fix my pouring regiment / times, and all else. I also continually see that you can really push extraction pretty far, it's hard to really over extract light coffee.

The other thing is, coffees certainly taste different with the first week post roast than second especially at 3-5 days. Always more aromatic so maybe that's why you can't get that floral cup back...
I drink two shots before I drink two shots, then I drink two more....

dale_cooper

Postby dale_cooper » Feb 09, 2019, 10:50 am

Almico wrote:And try some of those 3:00 coffees with the same grind and 195* water and see what happens. You can even bloom a darker roast with room temp water and then finish with 185. Very sweet and smooth.

Trying to squeeze the last flavor nuance out of a roast bangs you up against the point where undesirables start extracting with the good stuff. You might pull out a nice bergamot note, but at the price of a dry, astrigient cup.


To follow up - I had a darker roast sitting around. Probably 45 days old, beans have oil on them at this point. I think it was an aged sumatra which I remember not liking when brewing and thinking I just went too dark.

I brewed them with the coarse grind and 196 starting temp (which was 191) towards the end of the pour. All I gotta say is this coarse grind and altering of temp is now a game changer for me (to be determined for my super light roasts but yeah) Is the cup still roasty? Well yes cause those beans were just ok and the roast is dark. However, there is sweetness, and its not harsh. It's again - quite enjoyable which is really all I'm looking for. WAYYYY better than what I remember in my prior methods.

Cheers!!!

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Almico

Postby Almico » Feb 09, 2019, 11:57 am

Welcome to the club!

Higher water temp, finer grind and/or longer brew time bring out both the subtle good flavors and yucky bad ones. I prefer not to deal with the bad at all and will sacrifice the occasional black cherry/jasmine note for a nice, well-behaved cup of coffee.