Finding balanced cup in pour over (V60). - Page 2

Coffee preparation techniques besides espresso like pourover.
namelessone

Postby namelessone » Jan 24, 2019, 8:53 am

If a coffee doesn't taste good no matter what you do, it's likey due to roast, too hard water (with some delicate beans) or it's gone stale. Beans, especially naturals tend to change in flavour as they rest/oxidize/degas. I agree it can be hard to tell if you did something wrong when brewing, or if the beans themselves changed in flavour especially if you're only making one or two brews in a day.

I find 6 pours or thereabouts to be the most repeatable and consistent with V60 when using small doses, with Kalita 2 pours seems to be good enough. I also stopped stirring since when you're doing 6 pours it seems to make little difference. I pour the first 3 as spirals and rest just in the center. Again, find a recipe that works consistently and then stick to it and don't tweak the parameters too much.

For the 15g dose to 6x40g pours recipe, I use my Kinu with 2+0 setting. It should be a fairly similar grind distribution to Comandante. This corresponds to roughly something like 12% < 400 , 72% 400-1200 and 16% > 1200.

Zephyp

Postby Zephyp » Jan 24, 2019, 9:35 am

Thanks, namelessone.

I think the brew I made today was better than the one I made yesterday. How would I change something to achieve the same taste with the 6 pour recipe? Trying to understand and learn a bit. It doesn't matter to me how many pours I use as long as it taste good, but it would be interesting to know.

Yesterday: 30g bloom with stir. First pour 0:30. 6 pours with 35g, last pour 2:10. Drawdown 3:15 and 3:45.
Today: 50g bloom with stir. First pour 0:30. 2 pours with 100g, last pour 1:00. Drawdown 2:50.

I can't say if yesterday's brew was under or overextracted, just that it wasn't as smooth as the one today.

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redbone

Postby redbone » Jan 24, 2019, 9:53 am

Six p.o. seems a lot. I) One to saturate grinds and stirr. 2) Pour to top of basket or 90% of volume required. 3) Small pour 10% of remaining desired volume on inside of filter just to move stuck grinds into centre. A couple of shimmy and shakes aka Rao shuffle.
Between order and chaos there is espresso.
Semper discens.


Rob
LMWDP #549

namelessone

Postby namelessone » Jan 24, 2019, 10:14 am

Zephyp wrote:Thanks, namelessone.

I think the brew I made today was better than the one I made yesterday. How would I change something to achieve the same taste with the 6 pour recipe? Trying to understand and learn a bit. It doesn't matter to me how many pours I use as long as it taste good, but it would be interesting to know.

Yesterday: 30g bloom with stir. First pour 0:30. 6 pours with 35g, last pour 2:10. Drawdown 3:15 and 3:45.
Today: 50g bloom with stir. First pour 0:30. 2 pours with 100g, last pour 1:00. Drawdown 2:50.

I can't say if yesterday's brew was under or overextracted, just that it wasn't as smooth as the one today.


You might grind bit coarser when doing 6 pours. However again it comes down to what works consistently, I've also had good brews from doing only one-two pours, but didn't find it as repeatable.

You can do 10 brews using each method, measure & rate each and then you can probably see some trends.

U2jewel

Postby U2jewel » Jan 25, 2019, 8:02 am

Zephyp wrote:
1) What ballpark timezones do you have for draw down? I always find it to be a variable that changes too much to be relied on, especially when using different beans from week to week.


2) I don't ever change the ratio at all. I've been using 14.4/250 for at least a year now.


3) I never adjust for strength. My goal is always to make a cup that doesn't give a significant amount of astringency. I know about the 4:6 method and have read many positive reviews, but haven't tried it myself. It seems more finnicky than I wanted, and I'm not sure if I trust the "adjust these pours for sweetness and these for something else".


4) Does temperature change the brew in ways other parameters can't? I've seen many talk about adjusting temperature for acidity, but in practice, isn't it just another adjustment of extraction yield? Couldn't the same result be gotten from changing pours or grind size?



Good to hear you're feeling the progress. Just to answer some questions you had, to tie up the loose ends. Since you mentioned your preference for light Nordic roasts, my answers will be in specific reference to that.

1) The drawdown ballpark time I strive for is 2:20 to 2:40. The moment it goes beyond 3:10, I never say never and always try the brew, but it's never to my liking. With the lightest of roasts, the very last pour (however many you choose) is the biggest challenge and indicator. Difficult to achieve without under extracting, but I strive for an even and comparable draw down (to the earlier pours) for the last pour. If it can manage this, then it's going to be clean, most likely sweet and low on astrigency.

2) Rarely applicable to light roasts, but to shape and modify a taste profile of the brew, changing the ratio is an excellent way to customize the drink to your liking. Sometimes I dilute the finished brew with hot water after intentionally making a lower ratio pour. For example, 13 parts brew to 2 parts water.

3) cooking a roast beef or steak, I find many parallels to brewing coffee. I started and stuck with Rao method for the longest of time until I came to realize that there were ways to customize it to my liking. For years also, I was told to sear the steak before it goes into the oven. Well.. I reverse sear now. The 4:6 method has shown me what's possible.

4) Hard to answer clearly and definitively, but I feel it does. Not only does temperature work as a catalyst at which the extraction rate is happening (which is also dictated by p.o rate and frequency), I feel it defines what is allowed to extract. What that chemical is, I don't know. But using boiling water or thereabouts will bring out from the grinds flavors which sometimes I don't want in the cup.

There's hot brew and cold brew. I guess what I'm talking about is in between.

Zephyp

Postby Zephyp » Jan 25, 2019, 11:32 am

redbone wrote:Six p.o. seems a lot. I) One to saturate grinds and stirr. 2) Pour to top of basket or 90% of volume required. 3) Small pour 10% of remaining desired volume on inside of filter just to move stuck grinds into centre. A couple of shimmy and shakes aka Rao shuffle.

That's a method I don't think I've seen before, but good to know.

namelessone wrote:You might grind bit coarser when doing 6 pours. However again it comes down to what works consistently, I've also had good brews from doing only one-two pours, but didn't find it as repeatable.

You can do 10 brews using each method, measure & rate each and then you can probably see some trends.

Coarser when doing 6 pours would be my first reaction to the difference. I might try going coarser and see if I can produce the same cup with 6 pours. Not that I have any reason to deviate from what works just now, but who knows how long it will last. I would like to settle on a recipe that is as repeatable and consistent as I can get from a V60, and the 6 pour is one I've been recommended other places from people I would like to believe know a thing or two about coffee. Maybe I'll brew one with my old recipe and one with this one and check the EY of both to see what it says.

When doing 2 pours I have to pour pretty fast to get it in there before 30 seconds has lapsed. Today's brews were 50g bloom (no stir because I think the amount of water is sufficient to hydrate the grounds), 100g from 30s to 50s, 100g from 1:00 to 1:20, drawdown 2:20. First time it went down in 2:50 (IIRC), but since then it's been more around 2:20. I'm getting some high and dries, but this coffee is pretty foamy compared to what I usually brew. I have probably been pouring more on the filter/edges than I should have up till now, having read opinions from various people that it didn't matter. Not that I try to hit the edges more than necessary, but a few drops here and there to get some grounds off the filter. I have made 4-5 brews with this method now and still happy with it. It feels a bit violent pouring 100g in 20 seconds compared to the 35g in 15s I've done before, but the coffee is good.

The current setting on my C40 gives me around 10-13% < 400 according to my notes, but it might be a bit too fine still. How much do you change the pouring regime when dialling in a coffee? If you stick to the same grind, what would your ranges be? Is 6 pours a middle point and you go up to 8 and down to 4, or somethinge else? How does the rest of the recipe change when changing pours? Are there any rules you follow, like pouring within such and such time? Is the effect ultimately faster and slower brews, extracting more and less?

U2jewel wrote:Good to hear you're feeling the progress. Just to answer some questions you had, to tie up the loose ends. Since you mentioned your preference for light Nordic roasts, my answers will be in specific reference to that.

1) The drawdown ballpark time I strive for is 2:20 to 2:40. The moment it goes beyond 3:10, I never say never and always try the brew, but it's never to my liking. With the lightest of roasts, the very last pour (however many you choose) is the biggest challenge and indicator. Difficult to achieve without under extracting, but I strive for an even and comparable draw down (to the earlier pours) for the last pour. If it can manage this, then it's going to be clean, most likely sweet and low on astrigency.

2) Rarely applicable to light roasts, but to shape and modify a taste profile of the brew, changing the ratio is an excellent way to customize the drink to your liking. Sometimes I dilute the finished brew with hot water after intentionally making a lower ratio pour. For example, 13 parts brew to 2 parts water.

3) cooking a roast beef or steak, I find many parallels to brewing coffee. I started and stuck with Rao method for the longest of time until I came to realize that there were ways to customize it to my liking. For years also, I was told to sear the steak before it goes into the oven. Well.. I reverse sear now. The 4:6 method has shown me what's possible.

4) Hard to answer clearly and definitively, but I feel it does. Not only does temperature work as a catalyst at which the extraction rate is happening (which is also dictated by p.o rate and frequency), I feel it defines what is allowed to extract. What that chemical is, I don't know. But using boiling water or thereabouts will bring out from the grinds flavors which sometimes I don't want in the cup.

There's hot brew and cold brew. I guess what I'm talking about is in between.


1) What dose would the 2:20 to 2:40 brews be applicable to? You mentioned sometimes making 12g and sometimes 30g. 2:20 is what I've been getting now with 15.6g/250g, and very good brews.

2) That's an easy way to do it. At least to dilute. Not so easy to increase strength once the brew is done. This might be something I could play with when my brews are consistent and good tasting. I haven't felt like I've found the spot where I'd like to make smaller changes so far.

3) Very interesting. I might have to give that method a go after all then. Should I just start with the original recipe or do you know of any resources online in articles or forums that might be helpful? The recipe uses the moments where all the water from the previous brew has drawn down as the starting point of the next pour, but how does this work across different grinders with different grind quality? Do you just adjust grind until it starts tasting good? Are there any suggested numbers or even timings of each pour for various grinders? I would expect the timing of an EK43, a C40 and a Porlex being a bit different.

4) With light roasted beans my impression is that people don't wander too low in temperature, but I could try some experiments down towards 95C. My impression is that we just don't know how it all works on a chemical level, but base theories on experience, and if enough people find it makes a difference, I suppose it's worth giving it a go. This is also something I've planned to try once I got a repeatable brew I liked. As long as I've been making overly astringent brews and lacking consistency, I haven't felt that temperature is what I should look at. Which is why I've kept it constant at just off boil. I don't know if too high temperature can really ruin a good brew if the other parameters align, but maybe that it can make an already decent brew a bit better.

I like to think of the different variables in terms of how big of an impact they make.

Looking strictly at extraction yield, most variables come down to: 1) grind size, 2) pour regime, 3) temperature. In my head, grind size is the one creating the biggest impact (of course depending on how much you adjust) and what you want to dial in first. Then there's the pouring regime, where you can work with the area given by the grind. Once the grind size is set, there's a limit to how much you can alter it with pour regime (within reasonable limits). Last comes temperature, where you can make even smaller changes to the extraction yield in a somewhat consistent matter.

I tried to illustrate it. The numbers are just to try explaining, it's not based on anything and probably wrong. I might also have the entire thing wrong and that you can move the EY more with temperature.

Image

This is partly the reason why I've been adjusting grind rather than pour regime between various beans. If one bean taste great at 22% and another at 20%, would I be able to go between the two with just changing the pour regime?

Again, thanks for all the replies. This is very helpful! :)

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Almico

Postby Almico » Jan 25, 2019, 12:50 pm

The easiest and best way to control a pourover is to

A) pour fast to agitate and saturate bloom. The goal is to get all the grounds wet without having anything drip through. Almost impossible to achieve, but that's the target.

B) 2nd pour starts in the center to make a little carbon dioxide volcano then slowly spiral outward, almost to the filter, trying not to fill past the original bloom line.

C) The goal of all subsequent pours is to saturate the grounds bed, but not let the water line creep up the filter. Keep it at or below the bloom line. This forces slow and multiple pours and permits as little water as possible from escaping through the paper and bypassing the grounds bed.

Grind coffee to achieve finish in 2:30. Adjust water temp up to extract more, down for less.

Beyond that is just playing with your coffee. Not that there is anything wrong with that.

namelessone

Postby namelessone » Jan 25, 2019, 5:59 pm

Zephyp wrote:The current setting on my C40 gives me around 10-13% < 400 according to my notes, but it might be a bit too fine still. How much do you change the pouring regime when dialling in a coffee? If you stick to the same grind, what would your ranges be? Is 6 pours a middle point and you go up to 8 and down to 4, or somethinge else? How does the rest of the recipe change when changing pours? Are there any rules you follow, like pouring within such and such time? Is the effect ultimately faster and slower brews, extracting more and less?


When doing 6 pours 30 sec apart the coffee shouldn't underextract really. If all the water drains between the pours that's ok too. You'll notice that the bed draws down slower and slower as the brew advances. If I feel the coffee is overextracted I can skip the last pour and add 40g directly to the beverage which usually still ends up in an good brew. I don't really change grind setting or recipes between different beans. My pours of 40g don't take more than 10 sec or so maximum. First 3 in spirals, the last 3 gently in the middle, by 4th pour the coffee bed should more or less be saturated and flat by itself.

For example these are two brews from today using 15g/240g and two different grinders, in both cases draw down was 4:00:

Kinu M47 (2017 model) #2+0, 1.56% TDS, 21.8% EY
EK43 S w/ SSP burrs #12 1.70% TDS 24.5% EY

Both tasted really good. This was a *very* soluble Kenyan so the EY is rather exaggerated, normally I would expect more around 20%

RyanJE

Postby RyanJE » Jan 25, 2019, 6:10 pm

I still maintain, Don't adjust your grind to affect brew times, do it only to adjust the taste. I assure you total brew times will vary greatly based on different beans and roasts...draw downs have little effect on taste or measured extractions...

I still maintain that with 250g of water any more than 2 or 3 post bloom pours is just asking for more inconsistency... if you were pouring 500g or more of water then maybe it would be useful... in fact with the small batch size you may even want to use 1 continuous pour...

Also, changing temp does very little to offer consistency. Pick a temp and stick with it, some advocate as hot as possible for pour overs.. I just use 205 myself...

Also, I'm in the camp of don't pour right o the edges, it always just seems to add bitterness for me...
I drink two shots before I drink two shots, then I drink two more....

willardcw4

Postby willardcw4 » Jan 26, 2019, 10:09 pm

redbone wrote:For the most part I like Scott Rao's easy V60 brew method since it was virtually the same method I was using and found to work. Only difference was his claim that it does not work as well under 20-22g but found that it was possible with a grind change. I prefer a mini whisk vs teaspoon as shown in this video at link. Scott Rao V60 blog


What size mini whisk do you use? 5"?
Joe Fish