98mm Burrs for Brew - Page 9

Grinders are one of the keys to exceptional espresso. Discuss them here.
franklin270h
Posts: 62
Joined: 5 years ago

#81: Post by franklin270h »

Interestingly, as I had a set of 804 machined burrs for years and thought all of them were identical, a friend just clued me in as he has multiple burrsets from Ditting to try. There actually are some very minor differences between 804 and 805 burrs. Actually there are more than one serial # for 804 burrs with slightly different geometries for the U.S. market and elsewhere, and the 805 burrs are a tiny bit different than either 804 burr.

What the slight differences completely amount to though, IDK.

dimka323
Posts: 49
Joined: 5 years ago

#82: Post by dimka323 »

bakafish wrote:Yes, just without the screw holes.
Thanks.

Eiern
Posts: 627
Joined: 9 years ago

#83: Post by Eiern »

Didn't know about this thread, I use my EK43S with the standard later coffee burrs (and Titus carrier) for filter. I have tried the High Uniformity ones in it and while OK for espresso, it was really boring for filter, no body, and when you grind course enough to get rid off bitter dirty notes you get a weird boring hollow brew.

I have however tried a set of new Mahlkonig cast but SSP reground Silver Knight coated burr. My friend asked them to give him the pre 2015 geometry. I'll include pictures, you can clearly see the different shape of the finishing section, but the outfall seem pretty much identical.

They seemed a little more able to brew espresso with but I actually though these burrs were too clean and lacking body or interesting complexity for brew as well, at least for the nordic roasts I drink (Wendelboe for the most of my bags) so it made me less interested in the SSP cast they also «improve» in their eyes.

I like to be able to clearly pick out the beans characteristics in a brew and want sweetness. But it seems there really is a scale with clarity at one side and body and complexity on the other.

I have a Lagom on loan (have ordered my own as well) for espresso, and I get higher extractions and clearer with both unmodified SSP Brew/old Unimodals and SSP High Uniformity than EK43S with SSP H.U. or EK43 standard burrs. I tried the SSP brew burrs in the Lagom for filter and also find these to be very clean but boring. A great analytic tool but not as enjoyable as the EK.

I also begin to suspect that there is no use in spending a ton of cash getting different grinders and burrs through the door if I have the clarity and sweetness and body I want, as I think I don't want too much clarity if it's at the expense of body. I could just use the Lagom then.

By the way, I have a Wilfa Uniform with the small SSP Brew burrs Silver Knight coated for travel, and that one is actually pretty clean yet more body and complexity than the bigger brother in the more stable strong Lagom P64. So it's «worse» technically but puts a little more complexity in the mix. It's not a solidly built grinder or good for modding.

Lighter burrs is Silver Knight reground, darker is stock new MK.







zero610
Posts: 136
Joined: 6 years ago

#84: Post by zero610 »

Eiern wrote:Didn't know about this thread, I use my EK43S with the standard later coffee burrs (and Titus carrier) for filter. I have tried the High Uniformity ones in it and while OK for espresso, it was really boring for filter, no body, and when you grind course enough to get rid off bitter dirty notes you get a weird boring hollow brew.

I have however tried a set of new Mahlkonig cast but SSP reground Silver Knight coated burr. My friend asked them to give him the pre 2015 geometry. I'll include pictures, you can clearly see the different shape of the finishing section, but the outfall seem pretty much identical.

They seemed a little more able to brew espresso with but I actually though these burrs were too clean and lacking body or interesting complexity for brew as well, at least for the nordic roasts I drink (Wendelboe for the most of my bags) so it made me less interested in the SSP cast they also «improve» in their eyes.

I like to be able to clearly pick out the beans characteristics in a brew and want sweetness. But it seems there really is a scale with clarity at one side and body and complexity on the other.

I have a Lagom on loan (have ordered my own as well) for espresso, and I get higher extractions and clearer with both unmodified SSP Brew/old Unimodals and SSP High Uniformity than EK43S with SSP H.U. or EK43 standard burrs. I tried the SSP brew burrs in the Lagom for filter and also find these to be very clean but boring. A great analytic tool but not as enjoyable as the EK.


Thanks for all the input. I'm a bit confused what you mean by "Mahlkonig cast but SSP reground Silver Knight coated burr. My friend asked them to give him the pre 2015 geometry." I don't think the lighter burrs pictured are pre-2015 EK geometry burrs. Earlier in the thread, it was discussed you have to specify exact pre-2015 geometry to Hansung (and there will be a slightly higher regrind charge since it takes extra machining). Maybe that didn't get discussed when the regrind? To me, it looks like the lighter burrs pictured share the same geometry with the cast SSP burrs that Hansung always sells. It sounded like you weren't all that impressed with the SSP reground burrs - maybe that's why?

For reference, here's a picture of SSP cast burrs:


And here's an actual set of pre-2015 MK burrs:

coffeeOnTheBrain
Posts: 623
Joined: 4 years ago

#85: Post by coffeeOnTheBrain »

Eiern wrote:...
Thank you for sharing your experience!
I posted earlier in the thread about sone hear say from a fellow coffee enthusiast, who claims that there is a significant difference between the SSP pre revision 98 copies and the actual pre revision MK burrs. So your opinion is the second data point suggesting this difference. While I am not aware of anyone ever claiming that the SSP copies are as good for filter as the original MK pre revision burrs.

zero610
Posts: 136
Joined: 6 years ago

#86: Post by zero610 replying to coffeeOnTheBrain »

One devil's advocate point - with the limited filter specific burrs out in the market, the SSP cast geometry is probably one of the better filter burrs currently available. Keep in mind, these are the standard burrs on the Titus Nautilus (filter version) (just with Frank's ZrN coating).

rmongiovi
Posts: 460
Joined: 17 years ago

#87: Post by rmongiovi »

As far as I can tell, Titus provides two possible 98mm burrs. Their normal offering is the SSP cast burrs with their own coating. For a bit more you can opt for a "reground" version which I presume is also from SSP. I couldn't get any information from Titus other than the cost. When I asked for details I was told perhaps I could obtain burrs elsewhere.

I've exchanged a couple of emails with Hansung from SSP but the answers didn't really clear anything up for me. Sometimes he calls the cast burrs "pre-2015" and sometimes he says they're modified to be better for espresso and sometimes he says they're modified for fewer fines. I suspect there's a language issue here. I sent him email a couple of weeks ago asking about the reground option and if that was a true pre-2015 geometry but he has not replied.

I don't know if SSP regrinds post-2015 MK burrs to pre-2015 geometry or if he regrinds his cast burrs to pre-2015, or even if the reground burrs are actually the MK pre-2015 geometry or just closer to it. I also have questions about how the amount of regrinding required to change the burr geometry impacts burr hardness.

Besides the fact that the true MK pre-2015 burrs are the holy grail of brew grinders and are unobtainable, I haven't been able to find anything else out with any level of confidence. I'm disappointed that this thread hasn't prompted a response from one of the burr providers with real knowledge of their product.

Ejquin
Posts: 155
Joined: 6 years ago

#88: Post by Ejquin »

What Zero610 is saying is that in the Titus Nautilus, their newest grinder, the burr choices are either the SSP (modified) version of the pre-2015 burrs, for filter, or the SSP high uniformity for espresso. I know in conversations I had with Frank he believes the modified cast burrs are the best brew burrs available. That's not a comparison with the actual pre-2015, but compared to what else is out there.

Now that I've been using the Nautilus with the modified cast burrs for about a month now, I have to say I'm really happy with it for pour over. Again, I can't compare to the original pre-2015 burrs, but just judging them on their own, I am getting really good, high extraction pour overs with little bitterness or astringency. I'll post a more complete impressions thread on the grinder overall soon.

In a recent instragram post claimed the grinder with the burrs produced "the most uniform output..according to objective data.." I'm not sure what the objective data is, I haven't seen it, but Frank usually isn't one to exaggerate things.

Eiern
Posts: 627
Joined: 9 years ago

#89: Post by Eiern »

zero610 wrote:Thanks for all the input. I'm a bit confused what you mean by "Mahlkonig cast but SSP reground Silver Knight coated burr. My friend asked them to give him the pre 2015 geometry." I don't think the lighter burrs pictured are pre-2015 EK geometry burrs. Earlier in the thread, it was discussed you have to specify exact pre-2015 geometry to Hansung (and there will be a slightly higher regrind charge since it takes extra machining). Maybe that didn't get discussed when the regrind? To me, it looks like the lighter burrs pictured share the same geometry with the cast SSP burrs that Hansung always sells. It sounded like you weren't all that impressed with the SSP reground burrs - maybe that's why?
What I mean is it is a newer set of Mahlkonig cast burrs he got from a coffee shop that had replaced them, and he shipped them to SSP to have them recut to the old burr geometry, that's what he wanted. If the SSP did this or not I don't know, looks like they did their own thing and not like the pre-2015 as I could do espresso with them a tad easier actually than the new Mahlkönig ones (Lelit Bianca slow preinfusion and VST baskets, so yea, fine grind).

Two more thoughts: I do think the SSP cast burrs probably are among the better burrs for pourover out there, and the grinder they are mounted in, horisontal or vertical, RPM, alignment, feed rate/prebreak auger or none all probably will change their resulting taste profile a little. Then roast and brew method will behave differently. Sometimes I think the stock MK burrs are just a little lacking in punch and I try to grind finer but the brew will choke. Light roast, soft water. It's really hard to feel you've gone beyond, too fine, with these, it doesn't taste «over» when it's measuring say 24%. The High Uniformity ones definitely tasted way «past» fine. My usual filter brews hover around 22% but that's depending on beans as well. I'm usually happy with my brews.

Another thing is the increased clarity is probably more welcome in some cases maybe in a flat bed brewer with less heat loss, aeropress, clever drip/immersion and cupping. I did a cupping with the Lagom unimodals today actually after thinking about this and got a clean cup with more body than a V60 brew. Probably good for critical quality control. Will try a Kalita 400 gram brew tomorrow as I find the bigger V60 more of a challange to extract sometimes than the smaller brews, maybe the increases focus on body over clarity in flavor I usually get with V60 will balance it out a little more.

I also have done a few espresso shots with the EK burrs lately and while extracting less than the Lagom SSP burrs it does work with Wendelboe filter roast in VST basket with Bianca at settings close to the zero point, resulting in a gentler/mellower but sweet and balanced cup, just more dialed down and less clear tasting notes. Probably drown out more in milk, but a nice thing on it's own. My Lagom shots usually measure 24-26% and are more hyped up, clear flavors and a real punch for a 1:3 ratio shot. I used to use espresso roast with the EK before. With Lagom I «had» to switch to filter roast. If a bean or roast is not of high quality it will be exposed. Some I have to cut off earlier to hide stuff.

rmongiovi
Posts: 460
Joined: 17 years ago

#90: Post by rmongiovi »

I spoke to Frank about what Titus provides with respect to EK43 burrs. He said they have "SSP cast pre 2015" and "resharpened MK burrs". He wouldn't give me any description of what those are. I presume the SSP cast pre-2015 are just the normal 98mm cast that you can get from SSP. I'm not at all certain what resharpened MK burrs are. Do they have a stock of old pre-2015 burrs that they have resharpened? Does SSP take their own cast burrs or new MK burrs and resharpen them into (close to?) the pre-2015 geometry?