Titan Grinder Project - Page 20
- HB (original poster)
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Over the last few weeks, we've looked at particle distributions, extraction solubles yields, and even scanning electron microscope photos as a means of correlating in-cup results with the grinders' physical metrics. Fascinating stuff!
A weekend's worth of pucks...
However, in the opening remarks of this thread, I posed the question that motivated this project: "What am I missing from a more modestly sized home unit, if anything, compared to big commercial grinders in use at the best cafes?" In other words, I believe the evaluation should focus on the results that a typical HB member could expect to duplicate in their own home. I'm interested in how the choice of equipment can contribute to realized benefits for the average home barista, not just theoretical benefits only attainable by the innately skilled and highly initiated.
With that in mind, let's summarize the scores from my blind taste tests:
Mazzer Mini < (Mazzer Super Jolly | Cimbali Max) < (Macap conical | Mazzer Kony)
Note: I reserve the right to revisit this ranking. For example, the Jolly and Max / Macap and Kony could be switched in terms of pulling a proper extraction; they're very close. But in terms of realized benefits for this barista, the more forgiving grinders represented in the TGP produced less sink shots and higher total scores than my usual grinder, the Mazzer Mini.
Concluding thoughts... Tuned to the optimal extraction, the Mazzer Super Jolly and Kony are very close. Maddeningly close. With some blends, especially those with booming chocolate notes, they were nearly indistinguishable. For lighter, more nuanced espresso blends, differences emerged, the Kony favoring greater separation of flavors and brighter, more citrus notes. These characteristics were the "tell" it was an extraction from the Kony. Although the Super Jolly and Kony frequently exchanged scores on tactile balance (i.e., does it feel full bodied, round, and viscous), I noted a more buttery mouthfeel to the Kony espressos, despite that the two espresso had similar weight on the tongue.
A weekend's worth of pucks...
However, in the opening remarks of this thread, I posed the question that motivated this project: "What am I missing from a more modestly sized home unit, if anything, compared to big commercial grinders in use at the best cafes?" In other words, I believe the evaluation should focus on the results that a typical HB member could expect to duplicate in their own home. I'm interested in how the choice of equipment can contribute to realized benefits for the average home barista, not just theoretical benefits only attainable by the innately skilled and highly initiated.
With that in mind, let's summarize the scores from my blind taste tests:
- Round 1: Kony 3, Super Jolly 1
Round 2: Kony 2, Super Jolly 1, 1 tie
Round 3: Kony 2, Super Jolly 1
Round 4: Kony 0, Super Jolly 3
Round 5: Kony 1, Super Jolly 3
Overall: Kony 8, Super Jolly 9, 1 tie
Aficionado is Counter Culture's "espresso purist" blend; La Forza is their chocolate bomb blend for milk drinks and Toscano is their popular sweet, nutty espresso blend. To keep things simple, most of the above scores were only preference of one over the other, but this weekend I scored each espresso using the SCAA scoring sheet. For example, a pair from yesterday:When the modern espresso machine entered this milieu, the coffee blend of choice naturally reflected the Northern Italian taste: coffee flavors are balanced against one another; the natural sweetness of lightly roasted coffees offset their aromatic complexity and dance above a full-bodied foundation. The Northern Italian espresso would not be complete without a touch of fruity Eastern Ethiopian or Yemeni coffee, a reminder of the coffees traded by the Venetians. The final product is sophisticated and complex, and perfectly suited to the Northern Italian espresso ristretto and the traditional cappuccino. Espresso Aficionado evokes the marble countertops, rococo decor, and the sweet elaborate pastries and brioschi of the coffee bars of Venice, Milan, and Trieste.
We call our Northern Italian coffee blend Espresso Aficionado as a nod to the espresso purists who wax poetic over this, the most complex and challenging of the espresso styles. As with all lightly roasted espresso blends, it can be challenging to pull, and requires slightly hotter temperatures, say 203 degrees, to extract all its potential sweetness.
- Mazzer Super Jolly:
Crema appearance: 3.5
Crema persistence: 3.0
Tactile balance: 3.0
Taste balance: 3.0
Overall: 3.0
Mazzer Kony:
Crema appearance: 3.0
Crema persistence: 4.0
Tactile balance: 3.5
Taste balance: 3.5
Overall: 3.5
Mazzer Mini < (Mazzer Super Jolly | Cimbali Max) < (Macap conical | Mazzer Kony)
Note: I reserve the right to revisit this ranking. For example, the Jolly and Max / Macap and Kony could be switched in terms of pulling a proper extraction; they're very close. But in terms of realized benefits for this barista, the more forgiving grinders represented in the TGP produced less sink shots and higher total scores than my usual grinder, the Mazzer Mini.
Concluding thoughts... Tuned to the optimal extraction, the Mazzer Super Jolly and Kony are very close. Maddeningly close. With some blends, especially those with booming chocolate notes, they were nearly indistinguishable. For lighter, more nuanced espresso blends, differences emerged, the Kony favoring greater separation of flavors and brighter, more citrus notes. These characteristics were the "tell" it was an extraction from the Kony. Although the Super Jolly and Kony frequently exchanged scores on tactile balance (i.e., does it feel full bodied, round, and viscous), I noted a more buttery mouthfeel to the Kony espressos, despite that the two espresso had similar weight on the tongue.
Dan Kehn
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Err, Dan, I hope you had some company, or that you didn't drink all that! Yowza !HB wrote:A weekend's worth of pucks...
I've have been using the Cimbali Max exclusively for the last month or so, and I rarely make day to day adjustments to the grind setting. Typically, I only adjust the grind for a new coffee or a change in dose, and pretty much never for day to day variations. I went through the better part of 5 pounds of PT's Bella Espresso, pulling some from the freezer each week, and left the grind setting alone. I will be curious to see how the other Titans compare.
Most of my grinder hours have been logged on a Rancilio Rocky... and to be fair, it didn't get LOTS of adjustment either (although it would over a week's time), but it did have lot of variation in the results. Being a stepped grinder, I vary the dose as much as I vary the grind setting to achieve the desired results.
Jeff Sawdy
- cannonfodder
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I had the same observation, the Kony had a better mouthfeel, very palate coating. I still find your taste results interesting. My taste testing revealed obvious differences between the Super Jolly and Kony, most of the time.HB wrote: I noted a more buttery mouthfeel to the Kony espressos, despite that the two espresso had similar weight on the tongue.
I must mention that I have a preference for brighter, fruited blends and shy away from some of the deeper blends. To be honest about it, I don't care much for Black Cat, RedLine is more my speed. I thought the Kony took those bright flavors and pushed them over the top, they went from bright, sweet and fruity to harsh and overpowering.
My knockbox looked like that a couple of times. 6 double espressos in a day will give you a buzz, 12 will give you a heart attack, 20 will make your brain explode. After that many shots, even dirt tastes like espresso.
Dave Stephens
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Yep. That's one of the reasons for doing the "beat the Robur" thing -- a pair of shots to compare, wait a few hours and repeat. It's a nice stress free way to get through the tasting job.cannonfodder wrote: ... 6 double espressos in a day will give you a buzz, 12 will give you a heart attack, 20 will make your brain explode. After that many shots, even dirt tastes like espresso.
Jim Schulman
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Hey Dan (and others):
I'd be interested in your ranking of some SO shots between the Jolly and the conicals. What I've noticed in running SO's between my Mini E and Kony is... You know, I think I'll just wait to see what you taste in the cup as a way to verify whether or not I'm imagining this difference...
The other thing I've noticed with the conical is that because of a (perceived?) better definition of taste in the cup, that I've extended my "window" of peak flavor on most blends by two or three days.
Anyone else noticed this latter finding?
I'd be interested in your ranking of some SO shots between the Jolly and the conicals. What I've noticed in running SO's between my Mini E and Kony is... You know, I think I'll just wait to see what you taste in the cup as a way to verify whether or not I'm imagining this difference...
The other thing I've noticed with the conical is that because of a (perceived?) better definition of taste in the cup, that I've extended my "window" of peak flavor on most blends by two or three days.
Anyone else noticed this latter finding?
- HB (original poster)
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gscace wrote:I can tell you that both the Kony and the Robur like having some beans in the hopper.
Follow-on discussion split to Is single dose [without hopper] grinding inconsistent?...Ken Fox wrote:This post from Greg Scace has long been buried in this thread, but deserves UNBURYING. I think that Greg made a very valid point and one that needs to be considered in this thread and in all its "derivatives."
Dan Kehn
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The testing today completes my first round with the TGP grinders, and it's time for me to state my interim conclusions.
First off, the big commercial conicals clobber the home grinders like the Lux, and even semi-pro grinders line the Mini and the M3 when it comes to pulling consistent shots. The bottom line on this is simple -- no sink shots at all, the grinders dial in with one or two test shots, and stayed dialed in for however long the coffee lasts. No off shots, and even the small grinder adjustments I used to make to the Mini and M3 from shot to shot are reduced to the vanishing point.
This consistency is probably related to another property of these conicals -- ultra even flow. If the shot starts in a dribble, the grind is too tight, because it will stay a dribble. I've become used to seeing the flow accelerate with my previous grinders. If this happens with the conicals, it is invisible to the eye. It looks like the flow turns on, and runs steady from there on out. The Versalab never had this characteristic, so it may be something only conical grinders do. Or it could be that the bigger planar grinders with adequate transmissions will also do this.
When it comes to taste, things become more subtle. In the early blind testing I did on my own and with Marc, I used some blends that were not open ended in terms of flavor, but which had a distinct and mediocre ceiling. For these coffees, there is little advantage, taste-wise, to using a large conical.
I'll probably get some grief for this statement, but I think this caveat also applies to the main line, "comfort food" espresso blends like Black Cat, Toscano, Ambrosia, and Palladino. These are fine coffees; but they are masterfully designed to be forgiving and consistent over a wide range of circumstances. This is a desirable property, but it also means that good quality low end grinders will do them just as well as the high end ones.
However, when it comes to light roasted SOs and competition blends, the story changes. In Marc's blind tasting round of Klatch's USBC blend, the Mini lost every round, in subsequent rounds with less storied blends, it did just as well. In my "Beat the Robur" tastings, using a blend very similar in concept, the semi-pro grinders put on a good show, but were clearly beaten. The commercial conicals were so close the Robur that deciding the winner was a judgment call. If you want to taste high end coffees to their full extent, a high end commercial conical grinders will do better than a basic commercial grinder. If that is out of the question, and you have a high threshold for annoyance, the Lux and other grinders using the Trespade conical burr may be a better call for this than the small commercial flat burr grinders like the Mini.
Dan has arranged for me to hold on to the Robur and MXK for a few days when the Jolly and Kony come in, so that they can enter the "Beat the Robur" stakes, and more importantly, that Marc and I can do another round of formal blind taste testing, using the experience gained from the first round to get the wrinkles out.
I'm very curious to see how these grinders fit in. It looks like Dan is giving the nod to the Kony, and fitting the Max and Super Jolly in somewhere in the middle, between the conicals and the small flats. John and Dave on the other hand, think the Super Jolly equals the conicals, and Ken has the same opinion of the Max. So while my take of the conicals versus the semi-pro grinders is probably the consensus of all the testers, we are heading for some disagreements about how good the"full commercial" flat burr grinders are. Stay tuned.
Finally, another thank you to Jim P of 1st-line equipment, the sponsor. This project has ballooned way beyond a simple review of his top end grinders, and changed into an extended meditation on all things grinder. I hope he isn't too annoyed by this; and I hope when the dust settles, it will create an informed consumer market for these dream machines.
First off, the big commercial conicals clobber the home grinders like the Lux, and even semi-pro grinders line the Mini and the M3 when it comes to pulling consistent shots. The bottom line on this is simple -- no sink shots at all, the grinders dial in with one or two test shots, and stayed dialed in for however long the coffee lasts. No off shots, and even the small grinder adjustments I used to make to the Mini and M3 from shot to shot are reduced to the vanishing point.
This consistency is probably related to another property of these conicals -- ultra even flow. If the shot starts in a dribble, the grind is too tight, because it will stay a dribble. I've become used to seeing the flow accelerate with my previous grinders. If this happens with the conicals, it is invisible to the eye. It looks like the flow turns on, and runs steady from there on out. The Versalab never had this characteristic, so it may be something only conical grinders do. Or it could be that the bigger planar grinders with adequate transmissions will also do this.
When it comes to taste, things become more subtle. In the early blind testing I did on my own and with Marc, I used some blends that were not open ended in terms of flavor, but which had a distinct and mediocre ceiling. For these coffees, there is little advantage, taste-wise, to using a large conical.
I'll probably get some grief for this statement, but I think this caveat also applies to the main line, "comfort food" espresso blends like Black Cat, Toscano, Ambrosia, and Palladino. These are fine coffees; but they are masterfully designed to be forgiving and consistent over a wide range of circumstances. This is a desirable property, but it also means that good quality low end grinders will do them just as well as the high end ones.
However, when it comes to light roasted SOs and competition blends, the story changes. In Marc's blind tasting round of Klatch's USBC blend, the Mini lost every round, in subsequent rounds with less storied blends, it did just as well. In my "Beat the Robur" tastings, using a blend very similar in concept, the semi-pro grinders put on a good show, but were clearly beaten. The commercial conicals were so close the Robur that deciding the winner was a judgment call. If you want to taste high end coffees to their full extent, a high end commercial conical grinders will do better than a basic commercial grinder. If that is out of the question, and you have a high threshold for annoyance, the Lux and other grinders using the Trespade conical burr may be a better call for this than the small commercial flat burr grinders like the Mini.
Dan has arranged for me to hold on to the Robur and MXK for a few days when the Jolly and Kony come in, so that they can enter the "Beat the Robur" stakes, and more importantly, that Marc and I can do another round of formal blind taste testing, using the experience gained from the first round to get the wrinkles out.
I'm very curious to see how these grinders fit in. It looks like Dan is giving the nod to the Kony, and fitting the Max and Super Jolly in somewhere in the middle, between the conicals and the small flats. John and Dave on the other hand, think the Super Jolly equals the conicals, and Ken has the same opinion of the Max. So while my take of the conicals versus the semi-pro grinders is probably the consensus of all the testers, we are heading for some disagreements about how good the"full commercial" flat burr grinders are. Stay tuned.
Finally, another thank you to Jim P of 1st-line equipment, the sponsor. This project has ballooned way beyond a simple review of his top end grinders, and changed into an extended meditation on all things grinder. I hope he isn't too annoyed by this; and I hope when the dust settles, it will create an informed consumer market for these dream machines.
Jim Schulman
- HB (original poster)
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Split follow-on discussion to Duranium burrs for Mazzer Super Jolly grinder...
I have focused on the Mazzer Kony / Super Jolly + Duranium burrs since my time with the Titan's is rapidly coming to a close. After dialing in both grinders this morning, I only had time for two side-by-side blind taste tests using Counter Culture's Aficionado blend. The blend seems lower in acidity, less fruity, and bigger in chocolates than I recall; I'll have to ask Peter if its flavor profile has shifted or my memory is failing (or both!). To the results:
Round 1:
I add my thanks to yours. By the way, should HB members happen to chat with the good folks at 1st-line equipment, consider extending your thanks too, if you're so inclined. Earlier this year Jim P mentioned several members expressed their gratitude for 1st-line's sponsorship of the Holiday Wish List Gifts (Mazzer Mini + discounts) and it meant a lot to them.another_jim wrote:Finally, another thank you to Jim P of 1st-line equipment, the sponsor. This project has ballooned way beyond a simple review of his top end grinders, and changed into an extended meditation on all things grinder.
I have focused on the Mazzer Kony / Super Jolly + Duranium burrs since my time with the Titan's is rapidly coming to a close. After dialing in both grinders this morning, I only had time for two side-by-side blind taste tests using Counter Culture's Aficionado blend. The blend seems lower in acidity, less fruity, and bigger in chocolates than I recall; I'll have to ask Peter if its flavor profile has shifted or my memory is failing (or both!). To the results:
Round 1:
- Mazzer Super Jolly:
Crema appearance: 4.0
Crema persistence: 4.0
Tactile balance: 3.5
Taste balance: 4.0
Overall: 4.0 (yum!)
Mazzer Kony:
Crema appearance: 3.0
Crema persistence: 3.0
Tactile balance: 3.5
Taste balance: 3.5
Overall: 3.5
- Mazzer Super Jolly:
Crema appearance: 4.0
Crema persistence: 4.0
Tactile balance: 3.5
Taste balance: 3.0
Overall: 3.5
Mazzer Kony:
Crema appearance: 3.0
Crema persistence: 3.0
Tactile balance: 3.0
Taste balance: 3.0
Overall: 3.0
Dan Kehn
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I recently saw the Anfim Super Caimano, and it is getting some pretty good (but limited press) press.
For instance here:
http://forum.coffeed.com/viewtopic.php?t=1171
(hope it's OK to quote you here Philip)
Also here:
/advice/yet ... html#50030
The Caimano models are available with titanium burrs (see: http://anfim.net/en/prodotti.html); 49th Parallel is bringing them into Canada: http://www.49thparallelroasters.com/storeGrinders.html
Any thoughts about including a Super Caimano in some of this TGP analysis? (apologies if the SC has been discussed earlier in this long thread.)
cheers,
Stephen Duff
For instance here:
http://forum.coffeed.com/viewtopic.php?t=1171
andCoffeeparadise wrote:Burrs are 75mm, built with a solid geometry that works well with the RPM, (aprox 800). You get a range of grind particle variance that is very, very good. Slightly more fines than a mazzer major, slightly less than a Robur. I am not saying this grinder is perfect, but it is a solid step in the right direction. I know a chain of stores that uses this grinder and roburs, and hands down it seems to outperform the roburs according to the baristas, and also what I saw.
More discussion in that thread about the grinder, especially regarding how well it doses.I was part of a massive test on these grinders, i can say that for the cost, usability, and amazing accuracy of dosing, it is about the best grinder readily available.
(hope it's OK to quote you here Philip)
Also here:
/advice/yet ... html#50030
cafeIKE wrote: My favorite shop in Victoria BC recently got an Anfim Super Caimano. In concert with their 3 group Synesso, the improvement in shot quality over the Super Jolly and the Macap MK7 was nothing short of astounding.
The Caimano models are available with titanium burrs (see: http://anfim.net/en/prodotti.html); 49th Parallel is bringing them into Canada: http://www.49thparallelroasters.com/storeGrinders.html
Any thoughts about including a Super Caimano in some of this TGP analysis? (apologies if the SC has been discussed earlier in this long thread.)
cheers,
Stephen Duff
- another_jim
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The grinders in this review are sponsored or our own; in other words: you supply, we try.Any thoughts about including a Super Caimano in some of this TGP analysis? (apologies if the SC has been discussed earlier in this long thread.)
A caveat. Originally, this was supposed to be a test of grinders that were a step up from the Mini class; but still somewhat proportioned for home use. This is basically the Jolly, the Max, the MXK and the Kony. The Robur and the 68mm conicals got added as references; but without some drastic surgery, none are suitable for home use, even by the generous standards with which we use the term. The Major class grinders, like the Caimano, have roughly the same dimensions as these, so would also be a tough fit on a kitchen counter. And we are no longer talking about fitting under the cabinets here, that ship sailed long ago; these things also have very large and counter unfriendly footprints.
Jim Schulman