Follow-on discussion split to Do ultra precise brew temperatures really matter?

Abe, now that the GS/3 is shipping, care to make any comparisons? Have you gotten any quality time with one?

And even having had to send the Synesso back early, given the experience you gained with it, and experience with other machines since then, do you think it's possible, if perhaps only in part, to answer your two original questions? (Does the machine really produce a better cup? And the followup question is, can the average home barista really taste that difference?)

JimWright wrote:Abe, now that the GS/3 is shipping, care to make any comparisons? Have you gotten any quality time with one?

I had the GS3 in my kitchen for a few weeks last summer. It is a beautiful machine with a smaller footprint. When comparing the two, the GS3 is more suitable for a home user, for one, you can fit it in the average kitchen counter, does not need to be plumbed in, and has its pump in the machine chassis. As to performance, there was no noticeable difference in shot quality between the GS3 & the Synesso.

And even having had to send the Synesso back early, given the experience you gained with it, and experience with other machines since then, do you think it's possible, if perhaps only in part, to answer your two original questions? (Does the machine really produce a better cup? And the followup question is, can the average home barista really taste that difference?)

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My home machine is a PID'd prosumer dual boiler with a rotary pump and preheated water going into the brew boiler. That animal does not exist in nature at this time, though it is coming up probably next year from Vibiemme (less the preheated part). I did not detect any difference in shot quality between my machine and the GS3 or the Synesso, and I doubt the average home barista will detect it.

If I had to make a decision as to which machines to buy today, I would go with the equivalent of my home machine and pass on both the Synesso & GS3. One of the drawbacks of the GS3 is that it has a deep footprint, and narrow drip tray. When I flushed it, I often got water spills on my kitchen floor. It is messy that way.

Abe Carmeli wrote:If I had to make a decision as to which machines to buy today, I would go with the equivalent of my home machine and pass on both the Synesso & GS3. One of the drawbacks of the GS3 is that it has a deep footprint, and narrow drip tray. When I flushed it, I often got water spills on my kitchen floor. It is messy that way.

So are you saying you detected no taste differences between your Brewtus and the GS3 or Synesso?

While Abe's machine may have started life out as a Brewtus, it is a much different beast now.

I was thinking the same thing - I'm not sure comparing Abe's hot-rodded machine is really the right comparison for a lot of people considering a GS/3 or Cyncra. For many, the Q will be how the output compares to a more typical home setup (less expensive, non-modded machine).

Will these folks (e.g., me) see better shots, or will it be easier to get really good output more consistently, than it would be with a Silvia or Andreja? Or to go double boiler (and perhaps a tougher comparison), a Vivaldi?

For my part, I'm still pulling shots on an old Estro Profi, and having made one huge leap moving to an M7KR a year ago, and making better shots than 99% of café product already, I'm now ready for the next step, but looking for guidance on whether the $ for a Cyncra or GS/3 will actually be something I can taste day after day. I don't mind spending the money - I spend at least 30 minutes to an hour of every day making coffee - but will I be able to taste the difference for the extra 4-5 Gs, assuming I don't want to create a custom machine of my own?

houdina wrote:While Abe's machine may have started life out as a Brewtus, it is a much different beast now.

My question to Abe was a little tongue in cheek. As a Brewtus owner I found it funny that it would be compared to machines costing thousands of dollars more.

As to Abe's Brewtus being a different beast, maybe not as different as you might think. I believe Abe had two pids added, one for the brew boiler and one for the steam boiler. And said the mod wasn't necessary. The rotary pump mod is more of a convenience issue then a taste improver. And the preheated water going into the brew boiler is the stock design of the Brewtus.

JimWright wrote:I don't mind spending the money - I spend at least 30 minutes to an hour of every day making coffee - but will I be able to taste the difference for the extra 4-5 Gs, assuming I don't want to create a custom machine of my own?

My $0.02 ...

The biggest bang for your buck at the moment is probably a conical burr grinder if you don't already have one. I recently had all of my Christmases come at once. I had left my own super jolly at work and it went missing. Until we figure out what happened to it, I'm borrowing a Kony. Oddly, it doesn't seem to be displaying its characteristic increased acidity as much as it does at work, but there is no doubt that my shots are blonding later and are doing a better job of maintaining colour and flow-rate throughout. There is also more crema, which is nice, but not something that I care about greatly. The plot thickened further when I turned up to work and the usual random assortment of majors/k10s/bnz conicals that we swap around had been replaced with ...



(can you see the image? this new interface says that BBCode is off)

Contrary to what Jim thought in "Can it beat the Robur," I thought that there was a pretty big difference between the robur and the other grinders that we had had, including the other commercial conicals. This might well just be the ease of use factor, which Jim wasn't testing for. The shots were simply easy to dial in, thick in mouthfeel, rich in crema and clear in flavour. However, I should note that when we first put the Roburs on the bench there was a slight bitter twang to the shots. We fixed that by running a few kilos of coffee through each. Frankly, the difference isn't simply a matter of taste - you can see it just by looking at the pours or even looking at the espresso in the cup. Needless to say that I really hope that the Roburs stay and that I would definitely drop the coin on a Robur before a GS3 ... even if it meant cutting the bottom out of my kitchen cupboards to accommodate it!

As for the GS/3 and Brewtus, I have only had a brief play with each and in 240V. I worked on the Cyncra for a year or so. I wasn't particularly impressed with the Brewtus; so much so that I bought a HX instead. For all that I know, the 110V machine might be a different beast and I'd certainly be interested to fool around with the Brewtus again. The Cyncra and the GS/3 are pretty close, but I get the inkling that the GS/3 might actually be capable of better shots. I would need to use it for a lot longer to be sure and I would be happy to do so if someone had one spare ;P Based on my experience, I'm pretty sure that your average HB reader would be able to pick the difference. However, whether or not it is worth the coin is a different question. As I said, I think that at this point your typical HB reader would be well advised to buy a robur or similar first. If you're talking about what's in the cup and you're spending 1/2hr to 1hr per day making coffee, I think that you would probably be very happy to have a GS/3 or a Cyncra sitting around. I would certainly love to have a GS/3 at home. But I acknowledge that neither is really a perfect machine; for starters, neither has a drip tray that is as good as I would like, nor does either really have that great a fit and finish (although I haven't really taken a close look at the latest Synessos). The GS/3 has the paddle group in the works and for all I know there might be a few more tweaks down the line. The sensible thing to do if you're interested in these machines would probably be to put the pennies towards a Robur and wait until the paddle group is released. All of this presumes that you are interested in a machine that produces clarity of flavour and will really allow you to tweak your shots, at the expense of giving poor beans nowhere to hide. If you prefer to have more margin for error, heavy mouthfeel and more generic chocolatey flavours as opposed to clearly defined origin characteristics, you're probably better off with an e61 head with a long preinfusion time.

Hope that's of interest,

Luca

... on the grinder thing. That's why I have an M7KR at home - and I agree, the difference it has made in my shots, even using an old an pain-in-the-rear Estro Profi, is truly huge. I've spent almost a year playing with the new grinder before getting ready to upgrade my machine, and now I'm finally there.

Fortunately for me, my wife is not only a coffee lover/addict but an ex-Barista from what was formerly Espresso Royale, now Lulu Carpenter's cafe in Santa Cruz (I was that obnoxious guy who actually picked up the girls behind the counter...), so her tolerance for large commercial equipment in the home, and a kitchen counter covered with coffee equipment, is unusally high. I even seriously considered picking up the three group Cyncra the Counter Culture group was selling, but couldn't justify it in an 800 square foot apartment. :-D

luca wrote:Contrary to what Jim thought in "Can it beat the Robur," I thought that there was a pretty big difference between the robur and the other grinders...

Apologies for the OT post but... +1.

Jim has vastly greater experience and a much more sophisticated palate than I do, so you should value his opinion accordingly. And the "Can It Beat The Robur" thread is certainly a fun read, with some David vs. Goliath aspects (we all love to root for the underdog). But I have to question some of Jim's findings. In the TGP, I thought the Robur produced consistently better shots than the small Macap MXK conical and the Mazzer SJ. Other inconsistencies: I've owned a Nemox Lux in the past, and it's just not in the same league with any of the Titan grinders. And my one experience with the Versalab M3 leads me to believe it was seriously undervalued in the Beat The Robur tests.

Now if only the Robur was half the size, weight, and cost...