zin1953 wrote:FWIW, the basket just drops in/out of the PF for my Olympia Caffarex (b. 1989).

Jason,

I suspect that the main issue is differences from individual pf to pf more than differences in design. Other than top edge pf's do not really need precise specs.

KS

Last night I pulled espressos on the two Creminas using week-old Yemen Sana'ani. While not inclined to make any careful distinctions yet between the two machines as far as difference in style of taste I did notice something. Both machines have a range within which they maintain pressure. On the 67 all one can observe is when the heater kicks on and off. On the Millenium one can see rising and falling pressure indications. I know that my 67 was re--set very accurately to a pstat setting of 0.75 bar. Olympia recommends 0.7 - 0.8. The Millenium fluctuates according to the gauge from 0.65 - 0.85. When I intentionally pulled the second shots on each machine just after the heater had turned off (at the high end of the pressure range) the shots had more clarity. Tonight I compared shots on the Elektra Micro casa a leva and the Millenium. The coffee was 24-hour old Brazil Faz. Jacaranda. The first Elektra pull was far better in terms of clarity of flavor. The Millenium shot seemed heavy and dull. On the second shot from the Millenium I made sure I pulled it at the top of the pressure range. The clarity in the flavors was much improved, closer to the Elektra.

I guess the lesson here is that the added pressure gauge on the latest Creminas does seem useful in knowing where one is in the pressure cycle. I can easily imagine a coffee I will prefer pulled at the bottom of that range. Knowing at a glance where one is should help.

KS

As I now re-read Steve's commentary on the evolution of design in the Creminas I gain added respect for Steve's insight and Olympia's concern for lasting technology. On one point ...

srobinson wrote: As I stated in some of the other posts, Olympia has added a few very nice little features that can only be appreciated if you have dealt with the designs of other machines. Some are very subtle, such as the way they put a vertical cut on the neck threads:

<image>

This is one of those features that you never appreciate until you are half awake, have forgotten to fill the boiler and in your noncaffeinated state make the stupid mistake of unscrewing the cap under pressure. This little channel will give you enough warning to bring you back to your senses before you really do yourself some damage.

With the cases removed I note the following:



My 91 Cremina 67 also has that vertical cut in the neck threads. Thus it appears that Olympia makes continuing improvements in its machines in addition to major model changes.

KS

Well KS, it is nice to see you've convinced the better half that a 3-group is in order in your kitchen. Its a beauty.

PC

Karl,

I do enjoy reading your posts on this forum. I would very much to hear your decision making process to acquire the 2002 Olympia and let the reconditioned Cremina go. I would also like to read more of your thoughts regarding the taste/crema differences between these two Olympias. I purchased my Elektra Micro Casa A Leva last year from Chris's Coffee. I am now considering the purchase of a used Cremina. I do love the taste quality, steaming power and looks I get with the Elektra. I continue to envy the crema I read about from so many Olympia 67 purists here. From your last post with the 2002, it appears the taste quality of your shot is getting nearer the Elektra. Your thoughts please...

Tim

Tim356 wrote:Karl,

I would very much to hear your decision making process to acquire the 2002 Olympia and let the reconditioned Cremina go.

Tim

Tim,

Let me address your questions separately. To be perfectly honest I had abandoned all hope of getting a 2002. I know there will be a new production of them but the projected price might be prohibitive. I wanted a 2002 for one reason only. I wanted to know if it made different espresso. And, if so, was it better than my 67. Having concluded I would not find a 2002 I decided to have my 67 mechanically restored so that it would last as long as possible. While it was out being worked on the Millenium/2002 appeared on Craigslist and I was able to get it.

Tasting espresso from the two side by side has convinced me that the answer to my original question is that they do not make different espresso. I am convinced that I would not be able to distinguish shots from one or the other in a blind test. Others might but I cannot.

I suspect that this tells us something about Olympia. They have a very clear style of espresso they want to produce. They may modify their machines but the espresso is to be the same classic profile. I would guess that Olympia designed these machines to be small commercial machines and not for the home market at all. A small restaurant might want a very well made small machine to produce a classic espresso. Remember that home espresso machines came long after the Cremina appeared. Commercial establishments want consistent high quality. In a small package the Cremina is unsurpassed at giving consistent high quality.

So, I decided to offer the 67 because I know these machines are hard to find. The Millenium / 2002 is better mechanically and should be more durable than even the 67. That is my sole reason for keeping the one over the other.

KS

Tim356 wrote:Karl,

I would also like to read more of your thoughts regarding the taste/crema differences between these two Olympias. I purchased my Elektra Micro Casa A Leva last year from Chris's Coffee. I am now considering the purchase of a used Cremina. I do love the taste quality, steaming power and looks I get with the Elektra. I continue to envy the crema I read about from so many Olympia 67 purists here. From your last post with the 2002, it appears the taste quality of your shot is getting nearer the Elektra. Your thoughts please...

Tim

Tim,

Let me start here by saying the Creminas both produce great crema. They produce far more than the Elektra Microcasa a leva. They produce more and better crema than my ECM Giotto HX did. A fresh Brazil can put 30 ml of beautiful crema that is speckled and streaked with darker flecks and tracks.

While I did observe that Cremina shots pulled at the high end of the pressure scale do have more clarity like one gets in an Elektra, I would also say that the Creminas clearly make a different kind of shot. This week my espresso has been a Brazil Coromandel Faz. Sao Joao. As always I started with the Elektra because it always gives me the purest taste of each coffee. By the second evening I knew the taste of this roast and that it was not suited for the Elektra's style.. Moving to the Cremina made a series of really good espressos. They had a heavy generic coffee flavor with a layer of chocolate. The taste was not complex but the Cremina clearly made the best of what this coffee could be. I just roasted the coming week's dry processed Ethiopian. Chances are I will never move to the Cremina because the Elektra shots will be unbeatable. Ethiopians can go both ways.

I think you would be very pleased to add a Cremina to your collection. It would give you a wider range to explore. I do not think a Cremina can make shots like an Elektra. I would never give up the Elektra. As I have said before, I think an Elektra and a Cremina make the ultimate home 2-group.

KS

narc wrote: What do you attribute to the OC 2002's over dosing sensitivity?

Joel,

The 2002 has a re-designed group. One difference is that the shower screen protrudes down into the pf further than it does on a 67. Thus there is less headspace on a 2002 using the same basket. This difference is small but enough to make a slight difference in dosing. I suspect one could put a basket tamped level with the top edge of the basket in a 67 and get a good pull. Not so on the 2002.

I also note that I have never had the slightest hint of a sneeze on the 67 no matter how soon I remove the pf. The 2002 occasionally gives a very polite sneeze. The Elektra Microcasa a leva is a different story.

KS

KarlSchneider wrote:
I wanted a 2002 for one reason only. I wanted to know if it made different espresso. And, if so, was it better than my 67.

Tasting espresso from the two side by side has convinced me that the answer to my original question is that they do not make different espresso. I am convinced that I would not be able to distinguish shots from one or the other in a blind test. Others might but I cannot.

I wrote the above a little over a month ago. Dan Kehn brought up this question again in another recent thread. Since I am in the extraordinarily lucky position of having both a 67 and a Millenium/2002 I thought I should take another look.

This evening I had two shots from each. The beans were Brazil Cachoeira Yellow Bourbon DP roasted 58 hours ago to a french roast. The first from each machine were ground very fine and made for a pull that was over 40 sec. and required more pressure than usual. Both had great mottled crema and did not taste over-extracted. Both were a bit one dimensional as is usual for 48 hour roasts. The 67 pull required even more pressure and tasted a little bit more concentrated. I attribute the differences in taste to differences in my technique and not to the machines' differences. The two machines do work in subtly different ways, or, better feel different.
One difference I noted is that they have different heating characteristics. I turned both on well in advance. The 67 was closer to too hot on the first pull. The Millenium/2002 does have more stable temperature as noted by temperature in the cup and not by thermometer readings.

Since I thought the first ones were too tight I backed my grinder off one click. I may note that I once thought a stepless grinder was better than a stepped. I now much prefer my stepped Fiorenzato with its small steps between each notch. I can adjust it more finely than I ever managed with my stepless Mazzer. One more shot from each produced again two different shots. As has been noted on HB more than twice the differences were based, I am convinced, on the side of the pf opposite the machine. These were actually closer. Both had quite pretty crema, a nice simple chocolate core taste and very rich texture. I thought the Millenium/2002 tasted a tiny bit more elegant. I continue to notice small difference in use. The Millenium/2002 is less forgiving. I was a bit too soon releasing the pf and had a small sneeze.

My basic response so far remains the same. They produce espresso that is far more like each other than different.

KS

Thanks for that update Karl.

Jon