Thank you Jim for confirming what I've long suspected about flow control performance with Bianca vs ECM/Profitec.

another_jim wrote:If you're on the fence, look at the vendors and the appearance.

This.

I did have the luxury of comparing the Synch with the Bianca side by side, and while I didn't pull any shots, I was able to truly appreciate some of the fit and finish differences up close and personal. Separately, Jim (at 1st Line) is a stand up guy. A little rough around the edges, but knows his stuff and will take care of you. Even if you choose to go against his advice and get an ECM.

crazyascarl wrote:Well... This just got fun. Java Jim and 1st line have responded

video

I only watched Part 1 of Jim's reply, but WLL had to know that Lelit would be forced to offer a reply.. Good on Jim for taking the time to do it.. I don't know what would possess WLL to critique a machine they don't sell. Owning a Profitec, I'll say that he has some valid points. The fact the Profitec manual is so thin is more important than it might appear. In my manual there are basic errors in the operation of the machine to the point that if you followed them, you would not have adequate brew water temp. The manual also does not explain how to adequately use the HX design that I have. From a customer service perspective, I see many more posts from Jim helping customers than I ever experienced when I had issues with my Profitec. In fact, I got zero help from Profitec when I contacted them directly. I did find the Profitec a bit of a pain to take the case off.. especially with those 4 screws Jim mentioned.. and I like the paddle of the Bianca much better.. But both machines are pretty equivalent. I think both are pretty well built. I don't agree with Jim about the water/probe issues. I've been using RO + TWW water for 3 years and although I have some scale, no probe issues at all.

I think the point is that they're both solid machines and it was really petty for WLL to create that video. If Mark is convinced the Pro700 is a better machine, do a video where you highlight the pros AND cons of *both* machines and let the facts speak for themselves. They both are going to make a good cup of coffee (if the customer knows what they are doing). Each has some things they do better than the other (on the flip side, they each have things they do worse).

It's like comparing a BMW to a Mercedes... they're both great cars, there are perceived strengths and weakness and how they approach certain functionality may vary, but in the end, no matter what you end up with, (as long as you do regular maintenance) it's gonna get you from A to B.

I lost a lot of respect for WLL with that slanderous video, and while they had some points, it came across as totally bias, which is not how a company builds trust in their product and/or "expertise." Java Jim has always come across as abrasive to me, and while his video also had a bias slant, I appreciate how he gave props to "the competition," where props were due.

The elephant in the room in our discussion of both the WLL and 1st Line videos is, as has been pointed out several times in this thread, is the fact that the Bianca is way overpriced here in the USA compared to overseas markets...overseas the Bianca sells for nearly $1000 less than the Pro700.

Except for the build quality issues discussed by WLL, I'm fairly sure both machines are equally good at making espresso and steaming milk. The Bianca is much more compact than the Pro700, which is a plus for home use where counter space is at a premium. I looked at both machines, including how their innards are arranged, and settled on the Pro700 because it looked to me to be the one that would hold up the best over time and would be easier to maintain and repair when necessary. I do my own repairs and have a very good idea of what is involved in that.

If you look at all the comments on the WLL video you will see that the folks from non-US markets tout the price difference between the Bianca and Pro700 as a deciding factor in why they feel the Bianca is a "better value." Quite a few make the point that of course the Pro700 is a better made machine, with the comment that it should be since it's $700 to $1000 more expensive than the Bianca. Well, here in the US market that is not the case. WLL sells the Pro700 with flow control at exactly the same price as others here sell the Bianca. That was the main reason I chose the Pro700 over the Bianca. If the Bianca were available here for $1979 rather than $2979, I would have had to think about it more.

I'd like a straight answer as to why the Bianca sells here for the same price as the Pro700. That is the pointed but unanswered question raised by these "comparison" videos...

The European pricing of the Lelits may go up, rather than our pricing going down. Lelit has no profile in the US, so is a plausible manufacturer of hobbyist espresso machines. In Europe, they make a wide range of home appliances, and have a down market reputation; so they need to compete on price to get started in espresso. If you bracket that out, what really remains of the supposed quality differences between Profitec and Lelit machines?

WLL lowered their price to compete.

Last I checked there was a few hundred dollars difference between the two in Canada - from other vendors.

Also, FWIW, metric rivnuts/nutserts/rivet nuts are readily available in North America - they're not "welded" in place. It isn't like Bezzera has to carry standard hardware .

baldheadracing wrote:WLL lowered their price to compete.

When was this? When I purchased my Sync last August, the Pro 700 was $2700 and the Bianca was either $2700 or $2800.

I saw the Bianca in person at Clive, after I bought my Synchronika, and there is a definite difference in "fit & finish". To me, the Bianca looks cheap, especially with the wood & color of wood they chose. Looks like fake wood to me.

When you touch the machines there is a difference....

EDIT: I like "Java Jim" & the 1st Line Equipment videos. He did a great job going over pros/cons/differences of each machine. All the little things add up, and I see the Bianca was masterfully thought out.

Auctor wrote:When was this? When I purchased my Sync last August, the Pro 700 was $2700 and the Bianca was either $2700 or $2800.

At WLL, there is now no additional charge for flow control.

Got it, yup. Agreed, flow was extra.