Why would you not buy a DE1? - Page 10
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I am no wizard of a barista, but with a great grinder and a dependable espresso machine I don't find myself limited to only using certain coffees. I get why that makes sense in theory but after years of experimenting with different machines of varying capabilities I just haven't found it to be true in practice.luca wrote:Well you need the flexibility if you are going to do the things that the flexibility allows.
If you have a machine that doesn't let you change pressure and temperature, and those are set at some sensible combination, you'll gravitate towards buying the coffee that works best on it.
- HB
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A brief digression... My son is currently painting his bedroom. He's never done it before and has been asking me about how to touch up nicks and cracks. While reviewing his work at the beginning of the project, he noticed lots of minor wall imperfections and said he wanted to eliminate them. I suggested that a good painter knows how to hide mistakes, giving the appearance of perfection. He didn't buy my reasoning at first, but a couple days in, he agrees and shared a funny video about perfectionism that reminded me of some of this thread's comments.luca wrote:I feel basically the exact opposite... To illustrate this, these pretty-looking flow profiled shots... [they] probably were less aromatic than these pressure-profiled shots.
Dan Kehn
- Spitz.me
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Being content and being limited in function, by any margin, are not mutually exclusive. Limitations are facts whether you can taste them or not.
There are so many confounding factors with taste that facts start to get uninteresting and tired. Someone will buy a Monolith Max and wonder what it is that everyone is raving about. They don't taste the facts. I'm pretty sure I can't taste facts, but boy do I want a Max anyway.
As Dan said, "there's right for me." If anyone reads enough studies on "taste" and "tasting" you'll quickly learn that it's far from scientific since taste can be affected significantly by many other factors.
The DE1 flexibility allows you more capability to attain coffee euphoria, whether you know how to or not. If we are now arguing that this can't objectively help us make better coffee, then this forum is getting really weird.
There are so many confounding factors with taste that facts start to get uninteresting and tired. Someone will buy a Monolith Max and wonder what it is that everyone is raving about. They don't taste the facts. I'm pretty sure I can't taste facts, but boy do I want a Max anyway.
As Dan said, "there's right for me." If anyone reads enough studies on "taste" and "tasting" you'll quickly learn that it's far from scientific since taste can be affected significantly by many other factors.
The DE1 flexibility allows you more capability to attain coffee euphoria, whether you know how to or not. If we are now arguing that this can't objectively help us make better coffee, then this forum is getting really weird.
LMWDP #670
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Just to be clear, you are totally happy with ultralight Nordic filter roasts on a machine without PI control or pressure profiling? That's pretty surprising if what you intended. It's also the type of coffee I drink most (and suspect Luca is saying the same). Note that I'm not saying a decent is the only machine that can do this (manual levers are great for example), but in my experience with varying machine capabilities this gap is night and day so I think you might indeed be a wizard .RyanP wrote:I am no wizard of a barista, but with a great grinder and a dependable espresso machine I don't find myself limited to only using certain coffees. I get why that makes sense in theory but after years of experimenting with different machines of varying capabilities I just haven't found it to be true in practice.
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You may be right. But the DE1 flexibility also allows for endless experimenting and coffee waste based on the premise that it can always be better. The question wasn't "is the decent a great machine". I think the decent is a great machine, for a multitude of reasons. The question is "what is a reason not to get a decent?". And I think the reason is that you really only need one path to success the vast majority of the time and at a certain point having all the extra doors to open and walk through actually becomes a hindrance rather than an asset. It's very easy to start thinking "what am I missing" or "can I make this better" and then you've gone ahead and blown through a bag of coffee experimenting with different profiles or trying to perfect one complicated profile. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that and it may be exactly the experience you are looking for. If you are going into this purchase knowing you place high value in experimenting and data analysis then it's a perfect machine. If the end goal is to just consistently make great espresso then I'd say there is an argument that the limitless variable control doesn't potentially align with that goal. Does it mean that goal is not accessible? Of course, not, but I'd argue it's not the best option. It will all depend on the user, of course.Spitz.me wrote:The DE1 flexibility allows you more capability to attain coffee euphoria, whether you know how to or not. If we are now arguing that this can't objectively help us make better coffee, then this forum is getting really weird.
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One more quick response Ryan - all that experimentation leads to practically zero wasted coffee for me. Practically everything is drinkably good because the big picture decisions are pretty straightforward and the minor tweaks are minor tweaks, where all of it is "good". I probably waste one shot out of every 3 bags of coffee and I have six different bags open at the moment because I like the variety.
Edit: I had far more truly wasted coffee when I used my La Spaz and tried to branch out to unsuitable coffees.
Edit: I had far more truly wasted coffee when I used my La Spaz and tried to branch out to unsuitable coffees.
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I am, but I believe that has more to do with the monolith max than me. I found that less is more with the max. Over time when I owned a decent I found I was using less and less preinfusion, flow profiling, etc. I ended up just using the LR profile I created almost every time and when I would occasionally dust off one of the fancier profiles I'd find the results maybe were a little different, but not strikingly so. So I ended up just going back to my roots as a leverhead and repurchased the LR. That was almost 18 months ago. Even with the LR I think the PI adjustment just isn't necessary most of the time. I have it set at line pressure, works great most of the time. Sump, sey, onyx, brandywine are roasters I frequent.lessthanjoey wrote:Just to be clear, you are totally happy with ultralight Nordic filter roasts on a machine without PI control or pressure profiling? That's pretty surprising if what you intended. It's also the type of coffee I drink most (and suspect Luca is saying the same). Note that I'm not saying a decent is the only machine that can do this (manual levers are great for example), but in my experience with varying machine capabilities this gap is night and day so I think you might indeed be a wizard .
Look, everybody is going to have a different experience. I'm not saying mine is right. I just want to share another perspective. My goal is not to trash talk what I think is a pretty darn cool machine. My goal is to simply provide perspective from somebody who really doesn't care about data analysis and endless experimentation, but just wants to pull and drink great espresso with Nordic roasts.
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Exactly my thoughts I know we are all playing arm chair CEO's but it really would be a shame to see the bottom tier phased out. I would even like to see them resurrect the $1000 market again. They could limit the sales so as not to steal all the glory but it would be extra cash to help support their passion projects.Brewzologist wrote:If I were in Decent's business situation and really wanted to focus on the top tier, rather than dropping the DE1+ entirely I would look at licensing it to another manufacturer for ongoing production and support. That way I could keep a better work/life balance and focus on the innovation I love while benefiting from a portion of the revenue stream from the DE1+.
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I knew somebody would quickly say that I believe that you, Luca, spitz, etc may represent users who don't have that issue. But, I don't believe for a second that overall coffee waste with the decent isn't way up across all users.lessthanjoey wrote:One more quick response Ryan - all that experimentation leads to practically zero wasted coffee for me. Practically everything is drinkably good because the big picture decisions are pretty straightforward and the minor tweaks are minor tweaks, where all of it is "good". I probably waste one shot out of every 3 bags of coffee and I have six different bags open at the moment because I like the variety.
- arcus
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This is exactly what I was thinking. Now that there is a successful product and a growing market for it, I think further R&D and subsequent innovation is a lot more stimulating than running a manufacturing facility.Brewzologist wrote:If I were in Decent's business situation and really wanted to focus on the top tier, rather than dropping the DE1+ entirely I would look at licensing it to another manufacturer for ongoing production and support. That way I could keep a better work/life balance and focus on the innovation I love while benefiting from a portion of the revenue stream from the DE1+.