Why would you not buy a DE1? - Page 12

#111: Post by **Spitz.me** » March 9th, 2021, 1:10 pm

I would argue that simplicity - or the notion that something is simple, even if it isn't - does not equal "no fuss".

Quite frankly, it tends to equal much more fuss, stress, frustration and higher level of difficulty to master. The DE1, not unlike other semi-auto machines make the learning process easier and allow you to achieve better results earlier. This is at a fraction of the stress you very easily endure with fully manual machines. YMMV - clearly, ours do.

There is an undeniable tension - to me - when this forum recommends to a new user that they can go relatively low cost with something like the Robot and a manual hand grinder. What probably isn't apparent to the person who doesn't know what they don't know, is that this opportunity cost actually makes espresso harder to master. Not all newbies are dying to learn a new skill in the most difficult way possible. The difficulty I'm referring to isn't in the usage, it's in the understanding and mastery.

When I was getting into this espresso making rabbit hole in 2009, I remember early on that there was a discussion stemming from the notion that learning on largely incapable/inconsistent machines was the best way to hone your craft. So, get something that makes espresso hard to make so you can really make great stuff when you finally buy that GS/3!! We know, however that this isn't actually true. It doesn't perfectly fit. What you're doing to ensure that your machine is consistent shot-to-shot does not scale to high end machines. You're just learning the nuances of the machine.

I have a Robot and I know about its nuances. I know that I'd drink less coffee if it was my daily driver because of how much more simply I can make an exceptional espresso with my BDB.

#112: Post by HB » March 9th, 2021, 1:26 pm

Spitz.me wrote:When I was getting into this espresso making rabbit hole in 2009, I remember early on that there was a discussion stemming from the notion that learning on largely incapable/inconsistent machines was the best way to hone your craft.

That's crazy. Chris said it best way back in 2005:

malachi wrote:The whole "learn on a hard to use platform" theory is something that I've heard applied in other areas and in general I tend to disagree with it in all areas. I've seen it proposed in education, in driving, in cooking, in photography and in music. I don't feel it works anywhere.

In general...

First - doing so is incredibly frustrating and is likely to result in people giving up. A learning curve that allows for early positive feedback results in increased confidence which results in more effective learning and a willingness to fight through plateaus in development.

Second - learning skills that will be unneeded as one progresses is, IMHO, a waste of time and energy.

Third - in general, hard to use platforms tend to teach people to develop work-arounds and bodge solutions that become engrained and turn into bad habits once not using that platform. The unlearning process is usually harder than the learning process.

With espresso in particular I find that there is an additional flaw in the argument. The most common challenge for beginning baristas is not knowing what good espresso should taste like. This is a complaint we hear over and over again. The "if it tastes good to you it's good" argument fails for these people as the espresso is rarely good tasting for them early on with hard to use platforms. As a result, people tend to become calibrated to "acceptable" espresso rather than good espresso and often start drinking espresso in other forms that are more palatable (with sugar, in milk, etc.). People also tend to gravitate towards a particular type of espresso - a forgiving, darker roasted and low acidity coffee. Over time, people start to associate the flavour profile of this "acceptable" espresso with high quality. In other words, they lower the bar. This, to me, is the biggest problem with the argument.

In general, I think it is unrealistic for those who have fought through the process of becoming a barista on a "hard to use platform" and become successful despite the challenge to claim that this is the best solution for everyone. Just because you ended up being a barista - despite the challenges and despite the additional arbitrary hurdles you crossed - doesn't mean this is the best solution. There are a ton of good baristas out there who have never used such a machine.

Making it harder on yourself than it needs to be seems, in conclusion, to be unnecessary, counter-productive and at some level masochistic.

From The problem is on the handle side of the portafilter.

#113: Post by **jknotzke** » March 9th, 2021, 2:19 pm

I can think of a two main reasons not to buy the DE1.

The first is I seriously question the longevity of the electronics that makes up this product. Android tablets are not known for long lives. Their memory cells die and refuse to hold data and they get slower and slower and eventually choke.

Solder joints hate heating and cooling cycles. They crack and stop working.

When the tablet or the sensors or the bluetooth board on the DE1 start to fail (and they will eventually) where are you going to get a new parts ? Will the manufacturer still be in business ? If not, will they release the source code and the open source community will maintain it ? Ask any Sonos buyer how they felt when Sonos first announced they would stop supporting legacy speakers.

In the 20 years I have owned my Cimbali JR, I have replaced almost every single part. I yank out the broken part, take it down to my local coffee repair parts place and say "hey, got one of these"? and they always do.. Finally scale got the better of boiler and citric acid finally killed the pipes and valves and I had no choice but to strip it all down. I live in a tiny condo with no room to strip down an espresso machine.. So I had someone do it. $1000 later and he replaced everything except the frame and dials. New boiler, group head.. you name it. The point being, after 20 years, all the parts were easily available.

Not sure the same can be said for the DE1 in 20 years.

Next point, as James Hoffman said, and I couldn't agree more, dramatic improvements in espresso will not be had in espresso machines or in grinders but most likely in coffee and coffee roasting. Given that, why spend so much money on something that probably isn't going to last long and that doesn't really dramatically improve the taste of espresso compared to anything we already have for the past 20 years ? I mean, the question is, why buy a DE1 ?

To justify this purchase, you would have to treat making espresso as an expensive hobby. Nothing wrong with that of course. But if you are just looking for a machine that makes good coffee and is going to last a few years, I would look elsewhere.

J

#114: Post by **Brewzologist** » March 9th, 2021, 3:09 pm

appfrent wrote:Most people confuse innovation with technology. There is endless list of products that were ruined by stuffing needles/useless technology and were falsely packaged as innovation.

You are correct that technology doesn't always equal innovation. I suppose it's a question of semantics, but to me the Decent personifies "innovation". While I don't own one, I have learned a lot more about espresso from their efforts.

Spitz.me wrote: There is an undeniable tension - to me - when this forum recommends to a new user that they can go relatively low cost with something like the Robot and a manual hand grinder. What probably isn't apparent to the person who doesn't know what they don't know, is that this opportunity cost actually makes espresso harder to master. Not all newbies are dying to learn a new skill in the most difficult way possible. The difficulty I'm referring to isn't in the usage, it's in the understanding and mastery.

I have a Robot and I know about its nuances. I know that I'd drink less coffee if it was my daily driver because of how much more simply I can make an exceptional espresso with my BDB.

It's interesting how each of us can have different perceptions. IMO, some degree of basic competency in puck prep is needed to get good results on any machine. So, while I own a Flair Pro2 and not a Robot, it's easy of use and predictability is precisely why I like it as a daily driver. And, I would very much encourage a newbie to buy a Robot and a hand grinder as their first foray into espresso.

#115: Post by **Chrikelnel** » March 9th, 2021, 3:16 pm

jknotzke wrote:I can think of a two main reasons not to buy the DE1.

The first is I seriously question the longevity of the electronics that makes up this product. Android tablets are not known for long lives. Their memory cells die and refuse to hold data and they get slower and slower and eventually choke.

Solder joints hate heating and cooling cycles. They crack and stop working.

When the tablet or the sensors or the bluetooth board on the DE1 start to fail (and they will eventually) where are you going to get a new parts ? Will the manufacturer still be in business ? If not, will they release the source code and the open source community will maintain it ? Ask any Sonos buyer how they felt when Sonos first announced they would stop supporting legacy speakers.

In the 20 years I have owned my Cimbali JR, I have replaced almost every single part. I yank out the broken part, take it down to my local coffee repair parts place and say "hey, got one of these"? and they always do.. Finally scale got the better of boiler and citric acid finally killed the pipes and valves and I had no choice but to strip it all down. I live in a tiny condo with no room to strip down an espresso machine.. So I had someone do it. $1000 later and he replaced everything except the frame and dials. New boiler, group head.. you name it. The point being, after 20 years, all the parts were easily available.

Not sure the same can be said for the DE1 in 20 years.

Next point, as James Hoffman said, and I couldn't agree more, dramatic improvements in espresso will not be had in espresso machines or in grinders but most likely in coffee and coffee roasting. Given that, why spend so much money on something that probably isn't going to last long and that doesn't really dramatically improve the taste of espresso compared to anything we already have for the past 20 years ? I mean, the question is, why buy a DE1 ?

To justify this purchase, you would have to treat making espresso as an expensive hobby. Nothing wrong with that of course. But if you are just looking for a machine that makes good coffee and is going to last a few years, I would look elsewhere.

J

I don't own nor have interest in a Decent but the tablet is just an android tablet, it's super replaceable.

#116: Post by **slipchuck** » March 9th, 2021, 3:23 pm

The looks

Randy

#117: Post by **lessthanjoey** » March 9th, 2021, 3:24 pm

appfrent wrote:Most people confuse innovation with technology. There is endless list of products that were ruined by stuffing needles/useless technology and were falsely packaged as innovation. Let me make it clear, I am happy that Decent is available as an option and that they are doing well. I know what it takes to build something ground up and applaud John for that. Personally, I have never used Decent machines and has no desire to use one. First, I do not buy into their concept that you need to float every parameter to get a decent espresso. Second, I am skeptical about the execution of the concept. Just because you see some numbers and graph does not mean you have successful physical execution of the same. Third, I am really satisfied by the espresso I am making from machines with 10X less technology, some of which were manufactured before I was born and will outlive me. To me innovation is something like Cafelat Robot that can make espresso rivaling the best without fuss or fumbling and without a piece of wire or silicon. I splurged on Monolith Flat not because it has the best or even most technology. In fact, it has least of the already existing technology. It was because it lets me grind with the least fuss and fumbling. In the chain of coffee/espresso, the factors that provide you most return are (in the order of importance): 1. Quality of the bean. 2. Roasting. 3. Grinding. After this, the challenge is to find/develop the method that will let you screw the flavors least. The differences will be highly subjective and difficult to rank. Some coffee will shine on one, some on other. When there is something fundamentally better than levers and E61, wake me up. Stuffing sensors, graphs, bluetooth, IoT or even AI are not going to cut it for me.

To me I get fundamentally better coffee, absolutely no debate. But I like very light roasts as espresso.

Regarding your other points about longevity, I think John addressed that here quite clearly:
Is the Decent Espresso DE1 planned obsolescence?

#118: Post by **slybarman** » March 9th, 2021, 3:33 pm

jknotzke wrote: Android tablets are not known for long lives.

I am not sure I agree with your premise. I have 10 year old android tablets that work just fine. The only problem with them is the OS and apps have surpassed the hardware and/or manufacturers have not updated the OS in an effort to sell new tablets. The hardware itself is fine. Some have been repurposed for more mundane tasks.

#119: Post by **appfrent** » March 9th, 2021, 3:53 pm

Spitz.me wrote: When I was getting into this espresso making rabbit hole in 2009, I remember early on that there was a discussion stemming from the notion that learning on largely incapable/inconsistent machines was the best way to hone your craft.

I completely agree with this reasoning and the appropriate further information follow up by Dan. However, the context here is completely off. There were times when Rancilio Rocky was widely suggested as an entry-level grinder. And, that is a perfect piece of machinery to frustrate someone out of an espresso game. No, you cannot get anything good out of it. Inconsistency and lack of control are the biggest hurdles in learning. The only trait you are selecting here is grit and persistence. However, Kinu and Robot are neither inconsistent nor incapable. No one is saying that they are equal to or better than Slayer or Strada. However, if your budget is $600 (not everyone can drop 2K or 20K for espresso hobby), they are far better options than say Silvia and Rocky or even Breville Barista or equivalent in this price range for the very reason you mention. Robot and Kinu are the perfect tools to understand the basics of espresso making. The opposite of this argument is also true. The most expensive and/or capable equipment does not mean that it will be the best learning tool. Why do professionals do primitive cupping to evaluate roasts, instead of using 20-30K machines at their disposal?

Spitz.me wrote: I have a Robot and I know about its nuances. I know that I'd drink less coffee if it was my daily driver because of how much more simply I can make an exceptional espresso with my BDB.

I did not say Robot is the fastest or physically easiest espresso maker. And yes, you cannot run a busy cafe with it either.

When I tried it for the first time, I was really surprised by how easy it was to dial and make excellent espresso. Granted that it is inspired by Faema faemina baby, the design adaptation and execution are nearly perfect. The point I was making was that people underappreciate minimalistic and functional innovation. Put a bluetooth temperature and pressure sensor (which is relatively far easier) and everyone is super impressed.

#120: Post by **Nurk2** » March 9th, 2021, 6:00 pm

appfrent wrote:There were times when Rancilio Rocky was widely suggested as an entry-level grinder. And, that is a perfect piece of machinery to frustrate someone out of an espresso game. No, you cannot get anything good out of it. Inconsistency and lack of control are the biggest hurdles in learning.

Fortunately, HB is now immune from making recommendations for espresso gear that will, in subsequent years, be proven inconsistent and uncontrollable.