Why would you not buy a DE1? - Page 2

Recommendations for buyers and upgraders from the site's members.
DamianWarS (original poster)
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#11: Post by DamianWarS (original poster) »

HB wrote:At the risk of pointing out the obvious, if you search on title only "budget espresso machine", you'll noticed that the $2999 starting price point is already at the upper end of most buyer budgets. There's plenty of people who would go :shock: if you suggested spending $5000+ on an espresso machine + grinder + accessories solely to produce 2 ounces of liquid.
indeed the price is a good reason why someone may not consider the DE. there are perfectly adequate machines for far cheaper.
HB wrote:Indeed! I'll be a little contrarian and ask: Given sufficient skill, what can a DE do that you cannot replicate on your levers? There's no doubt that technology is a helpful exploration aid, but in the end, isn't espresso really boil down to hot pressurized water being pushed through coffee?
For me, the process of making the coffee (for pourover, espresso, etc...) is part of the enjoyment and I can understand if someone has a loss sense of enjoyment when using a DE compared to a machine they are more familiar with and for that reason alone choose not to buy it.

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HB
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#12: Post by HB »

walr00s wrote:...my impression is that the DE1 can give you feedback more definitive than just a satisfying taste that everything went the way you wanted it to.
Feedback is definitely helpful, no argument there. But I'll continue being contrarian and cite one of my posts from way-y-y back in 2006:
HB wrote:If any manufacturers / vendors / entrepreneurs are reading this thread and thinking how to productize the TC adapter, allow me to offer a suggestion: Whatever you do, make it "idiot proof." One way of reducing the thinking requirement is eliminating the temperature readout. Not to insult the fictitious Joe "Sixpack" Barista, but if he sees readouts in excess of 212F, all sorts of difficult questions could arise. If one can provide step-by-step instructions, Joe will be happier if you don't require that understanding proceed use.

So I propose the HX Ready-Temp Readout (tm):


HX-RTR, patent pending

The scales aren't necessarily linear. The red LEDs could be 216, 213, 210, yellow LEDs 209, 208, 207, and green LEDs 206.5, 206.0, 205, and 204. Instructions on getting temperatures "just so" could be easily stated:
  • If the machine has been idle for 10 minutes or more, flush until the rightmost yellow LED illuminates ("warm up" flush). Note: The empty portafilter should be locked in.
  • Remove the portafilter. Dry the basket. Dose, distribute, tamp. Flush until the second green LED illuminates (adjusted to taste).
  • Lock in the portafilter.
  • Immediately start the extraction or
  • Wait n seconds, then start the extraction. [ed: depends on choice of flush-n-go or rebound; best method depends on espresso machine]
While I am a gadget junkie, one of the most appealing aspects of the RTR is its lack of digital readout. It encourages the barista to adjust temperature by taste, not a number.
Re-reading the post above, I forgot that I followed up on this thought 10 years later:
HB wrote:La Marzocco didn't take my suggestion, but if they had, the Linea Mini wheel would have no temperature values, just an arbitrary scale. Honestly, the La Marzocco Linea Mini appeals to me because it does not have a prominent digital readout, thereby encouraging the barista to adjust temperature by taste, not a number.
Back to this topic, one appealing quality of technology feedback is reassurance that you didn't screw up... or measurable indicators that you did. It's the polar opposite of the Zen approach espoused by lever lovers, but I see the value of it, especially if you're a fan of exploring expensive or fussy coffees.
Dan Kehn

Flair Espresso: handcrafted espresso. cafe-quality shots, anytime, anywhere
Sponsored by Flair Espresso
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Spitz.me

#13: Post by Spitz.me »

For me I am a little turned off by the iterative nature of the product. So, I would have to be someone who is secure enough to feel confident that a new iteration in 6 months won't make me feel disenfranchised. I got over that, but it was something that bothered me.

Beginners should want a DE1 (IMHO):
You don't know what you don't know. Many forum posts asking for diagnosis of bad espresso are vague because the person doesn't really know what to ask. A beginner being turned off by a wealth of information seems closed minded to me. It's easier to learn with a vocabulary that the DECENT can provide to you - including a nice picture you can show people if you're struggling. A PICTURE of your shot. This is pretty incredible - at least I think so.
LMWDP #670

mmntip

#14: Post by mmntip »

MichaelC wrote:Being newer to espresso, I like the simplicity of a machine with very few variables to manage.

I think the DE1 can be easily become overwhelming for newer users.
You could very well get lost (if you wanted to) but the thing is that the Decent makes it incredibly easy to make great shots without any tinkering required. It is a great machine for beginners.

walr00s
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#15: Post by walr00s »

Spitz.me wrote:For me I am a little turned off by the iterative nature of the product. So, I would have to be someone who is secure enough to feel confident that a new iteration in 6 months won't make me feel disenfranchised. I got over that, but it was something that bothered me.
When I first read about the iterations, I felt the same way, but it seems like the vast majority of recent iterations are firmware/software updates that can be patched to older devices.

MNate

#16: Post by MNate »

I have a DE1 and absolutely think it's special. But I would still be hesitant to recommend it to someone who is expecting an iPhone experience (but for any regular on HB I would certainly recommend it). The UI is still developing and although 100% functional and reliable you kind of feel like you need one foot in the Diaspora discussions. Want to hit a button on your phone upstairs to start the machine warming up? Well, maybe if you search the Diaspora someone has come up with a way if you install something... These aren't essential function things, and really just more about expectations and experience.

It can be set as a walk-up, hit a single button operation but then you lose out on a lot of what makes the DE1 special.

So I can see a person deciding to not buy the DE1 YET, waiting for the software experience to mature a bit. The great thing is as it matures those who already have one get the new benefits as well!

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arcus
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#17: Post by arcus »

The DE1 certainly has a loyal and vocal fan base here. It's similar to the "the answer is always Miata" when people ask for convertible recommendations :lol:

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DamianWarS (original poster)
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#18: Post by DamianWarS (original poster) »

HB wrote:back to this topic, one appealing quality of technology feedback is reassurance that you didn't screw up... or measurable indicators that you did. It's the polar opposite of the Zen approach espoused by lever lovers, but I see the value of it, especially if you're a fan of exploring expensive or fussy coffees.
Of course the DE doesn't need the tablet and it can be removed if you want to hone in your zen skills (absent the lever of course). I think the DE can somewhat deconstruct the shot so much that the process loses its magic or mystery it once had and for some this may be unwanted.

DamianWarS (original poster)
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#19: Post by DamianWarS (original poster) »

MNate wrote:So I can see a person deciding to not buy the DE1 YET, waiting for the software experience to mature a bit. The great thing is as it matures those who already have one get the new benefits as well!
This begs the question will there be a DE2

MNate

#20: Post by MNate » replying to DamianWarS »

It doesn't seem like it in the next number of years. The internals can make the machine do anything and are mature technologies in themselves. But the software will improve and I think the general understanding of what makes espresso so good will improve. Pressure profiling? Ok, the DE1 can do that. Oh, flow profiling is better? Sure, it can do it that way.

Even this notion that a top tier espresso machine needs to brew and steam at the same time (in real life I don't think it is, especially with "ghost steaming") I don't think will be something that makes a DE2. It's up against limitations of a typical home circuit, and even at a commercial level the better answer really is, buy 2 DE1s.