Why not double boiler with PID?
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if you are going to spend $1,700 plus for a machine why would you not spend a few dollars more and go with a double boiler with a PID? It seems that so many of the espressos beans are requiring specific temperatures to bring out there nuances. Am I off base on this one? Why surf when you can get it dialed in to the the exact temperature.
Thanks,
Thanks,
- another_jim
- Team HB
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People who have tried a wide variety of different espresso blends and SOs on a wide variety of machines are rarely glib about what will and what won't bring out the nuances. However, I think all or almost all the people in this position agree that a rock solid grinder combined with accurate dosing and packing are more important than how the water gets heated.
Personally, I'd prefer a Robur and 1/10th gram scale combined with a basic HX machine to a GS3 combined with a basic grinder like a Mini for just about any espresso blend that has nuances.
Personally, I'd prefer a Robur and 1/10th gram scale combined with a basic HX machine to a GS3 combined with a basic grinder like a Mini for just about any espresso blend that has nuances.
Jim Schulman
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Jim,
I get that it's about the grinder, not everyone is going to spend $3,000 on a grinder and then get a $1,500 HX machine. I felt that my question was a valid one for people like myself looking at the many options available for a machine.
I get that it's about the grinder, not everyone is going to spend $3,000 on a grinder and then get a $1,500 HX machine. I felt that my question was a valid one for people like myself looking at the many options available for a machine.
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What PID DB machine looks as nice and with similar build quality as a good $1700 HX for only a few dollars more?Steelman wrote:if you are going to spend $1,700 plus for a machine why would you not spend a few dollars more and go with a double boiler with a PID? It seems that so many of the espressos beans are requiring specific temperatures to bring out there nuances. Am I off base on this one? Why surf when you can get it dialed in to the the exact temperature.
Thanks,
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Doug, are you asking why you've done a lot of research, or are you asking why anyone would "bother" (my choice of words; not yours) with an HX machine when they could have a DB?Steelman wrote:if you are going to spend $1,700 plus for a machine why would you not spend a few dollars more and go with a double boiler with a PID? It seems that so many of the espressos beans are requiring specific temperatures to bring out there nuances. Am I off base on this one? Why surf when you can get it dialed in to the the exact temperature.
Why does someone choose to drive a Corvette when they could drive an Ferrari? Why does someone choose to drive a Cadillac when they could drive a Mercedes-Benz? Why does someone choose to drive automatic when they could drive a stick? Why -- well, you get the point . . .
I have two setups -- one at home, and one in my office.
Home:
Elektra Sixties T1 (plumbed-in HX), Mahlkönig K30 Vario, and Baratza Vario grinders.
Office:
Ala di Vittoria La Valentina (pourover HX), Cimbali Max Hybrid and Nuova Simonelli MCI grinders.
So, instead of
I did it the otherway 'round, at least on the home setup.Steelman wrote: . . . spend(ing) $3,000 on a grinder and then get a $1,500 HX machine.
The serious point here is that there is no "right" answer, no "one-size-fits-all." Does a DB make great espresso? Potentially, sure. Does an HX make great espresso? Potentially, sure it does. But it is not the machine; it is not the grinder; it's the person operating the equipment and pulling the shots that's crucial!
As I've said before, I've yet to taste the difference between a great shot pulled on a DB and a great shot pulled on an HX. They are both great shots. Period.
Each type of machine has its advantages and its disadvantages, just like, say, the difference between driving a stick vs. an automatic.
And besides, some people actually prefer a stick . . .
Cheers,
Jason
A morning without coffee is sleep. -- Anon.
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I was thinking about the Alex Duetto which is about $400.00 more.Ben Z. wrote:What PID DB machine looks as nice and with similar build quality as a good $1700 HX for only a few dollars more?
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Maybe if I paraphrase your question and his answer as I understood them it'll sound clearer?Steelman wrote:I felt that my question was a valid one for people like myself looking at the many options available for a machine.
You asked: Why would anyone spend $X on an HX instead of $X+some on a PID'd DB?
Jim answered: Because the grinder is more important and you'll get better espresso if you add the +some into your grinder budget than if you put it into a higher priced machine.
What grinder are you considering to go with your machine? And what $1700HX versus what "+a few dollars more" DB/PID machines are you considering? These details might change the answer.
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Maybe the thread starter can give some more context as to his situation?
Are you asking that if we only consider the brewing device, independent of your experience/bean choice/desired end product/palate and supporting brewing equipment, is spending more on a commonly desirable technology better than not? i.e. - if a 2.1 GHz processor is good, why wouldn't 2.2 GHz be better? Why wouldn't the answer be yes?
If there is some other consideration or constraint, then ROI and how to make a selective spend can be more interesting discussions for the group.
Otherwise, I say why not?
If you are feeling really super technical, you could get a Scace pressure/temperature device and the lowest end E61 machine (Expobar Office Lever +/-) instead of the PID'ed double boiler machine. That would be about $1800.
WES
Are you asking that if we only consider the brewing device, independent of your experience/bean choice/desired end product/palate and supporting brewing equipment, is spending more on a commonly desirable technology better than not? i.e. - if a 2.1 GHz processor is good, why wouldn't 2.2 GHz be better? Why wouldn't the answer be yes?
If there is some other consideration or constraint, then ROI and how to make a selective spend can be more interesting discussions for the group.
Otherwise, I say why not?
If you are feeling really super technical, you could get a Scace pressure/temperature device and the lowest end E61 machine (Expobar Office Lever +/-) instead of the PID'ed double boiler machine. That would be about $1800.
WES
- ailevin
- Posts: 53
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Doug,
I have been asking myself that same question for the past week or two. I recently ordered an HX machine, so let me explain why. I've been using a Rocky/Silvia combination for about ten years, and I added PID about five years ago. Last December I upgraded my grinder from Rocky to Macap 4, and I got a 0.1g scale and a bottomless portafilter.
I discovered that I was much more limited by my dosing/distribution technique, and my ability to adjust the grind, than I was by the temperature stability of my Silvia. After a month or so of puttering, I seemed to have much more control over these variables and could really explore dose/grind. I was drinking much more espresso vice milk drinks, and for the first time I could really tune what sort of shots I was pulling. In addition, I was finally able to consistently taste the difference of cranking my PID a couple degrees cooler or hotter.
Now back to your question and my recent answer to it. I narrowed it down to the Quickmill Vetrano (HX), and the La Spaziale Vivaldi II (DB PID) which was about $500 more. I expected I would eventually consistently pull better shots with either machine than I do now with my Silvia. I thought the Vetrano was a good buy, but the Vivaldi was well worth the additional money; cost/value were not deciding factors for me. I chose the Vetrano because I wanted to play with an E61 machine--the more manual operation, the different techniques to get different extraction profiles, the geeky digital group thermometer attachment all appealed to me. It seemed like the next logical step in a process of exploration that I have enjoyed for years now. I may end up with a Vivaldi II or something like it one day, but right now I had little urge to leap there.
I'm looking forward to the next chapter.
Alan
I have been asking myself that same question for the past week or two. I recently ordered an HX machine, so let me explain why. I've been using a Rocky/Silvia combination for about ten years, and I added PID about five years ago. Last December I upgraded my grinder from Rocky to Macap 4, and I got a 0.1g scale and a bottomless portafilter.
I discovered that I was much more limited by my dosing/distribution technique, and my ability to adjust the grind, than I was by the temperature stability of my Silvia. After a month or so of puttering, I seemed to have much more control over these variables and could really explore dose/grind. I was drinking much more espresso vice milk drinks, and for the first time I could really tune what sort of shots I was pulling. In addition, I was finally able to consistently taste the difference of cranking my PID a couple degrees cooler or hotter.
Now back to your question and my recent answer to it. I narrowed it down to the Quickmill Vetrano (HX), and the La Spaziale Vivaldi II (DB PID) which was about $500 more. I expected I would eventually consistently pull better shots with either machine than I do now with my Silvia. I thought the Vetrano was a good buy, but the Vivaldi was well worth the additional money; cost/value were not deciding factors for me. I chose the Vetrano because I wanted to play with an E61 machine--the more manual operation, the different techniques to get different extraction profiles, the geeky digital group thermometer attachment all appealed to me. It seemed like the next logical step in a process of exploration that I have enjoyed for years now. I may end up with a Vivaldi II or something like it one day, but right now I had little urge to leap there.
I'm looking forward to the next chapter.
Alan
- Randy G.
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A well designed HX machine will out-perform a poorly designed DB machine. A well designed DB machine will outperform a poorly designed HX machine. One technology does not make a machine necessarily superior to another. You can't just ask about "spending a bit more," and figure that it will be superior just because it has two boilers instead of one. What about, "...if you are going to spend $1,700 plus for a machine why would you not spend a few dollars more and go with.." a better HX machine? How about finding specific examples of the machines you are considering and starting a conversation along that comparison?Steelman wrote:Jim,
I get that it's about the grinder, not everyone is going to spend $3,000 on a grinder and then get a $1,500 HX machine
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