Why are some used E61 espresso machines significantly cheaper than others?

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coffeegeekII
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#1: Post by coffeegeekII »

Hi there

This might seem like an odd question but bear with me. I'm on a mission to source the cheapest, yet reliable, second hand E61 machine that I can get out there. I have been monitoring the market (eBay, gumtree - I'm UK based) for a while and I've come to realise certain makes (eg Vibiemme, Expobar) will sometimes go for around £350-400, while others (Rancilio, ECM, most often Lelit) are significantly higher (at least £600, typically £700-800).

I understand some of those most expensive machines might have better build or design. But is there anything else I might be missing? Might it be e.g. that Expobar parts might be harder to come by?

Ta!

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BaristaBoy E61
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#2: Post by BaristaBoy E61 »

I think that some of the main factors might be age, single or dual boiler, brand name recognition, whether the group is solenoid controlled 2-way function (no line level preinfusion) or lever with 3-way (line level preinfusion), among other features, such as direct plumbability.

You should be able to restore and get a good result from any variety while maintaining a reasonable resale value and not costing a mint.
"You didn't buy an Espresso Machine - You bought a Chemistry Set!"

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baldheadracing
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#3: Post by baldheadracing »

It isn't clear if Expobar - the Spanish factory - exists anymore. Regardless, their machines were always on the lower end.

VBM is still around AFAIK.
-"Good quality brings happiness as you use it" - Nobuho Miya, Kamasada

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another_jim
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#4: Post by another_jim »

You need to look up the particular model. New E61 machines range from $1000 to $3500; and used prices reflect new ones.

As Steve pointed out, the $1000 ones will have a single boiler that needs to switched be between staem and brew. Those in the $1500 to $2000 range are HX machines wich can steam and brew at the same time, but which can overheat. The most expensive ones feature separate brew and steam boilerrs, and often rotary pumps, and are much easier to use. Before buying any machine, you should have an idea which featrues are importatn to you and which are not.
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erik82
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#5: Post by erik82 »

Expobar made great machines but finish was a bit less so you paid a lot less then a comparable ECM or Vibiemme (except the Vibiemme SB which isn't all that good so cheap). Rocket E61s are also pretty expensive but they do perform great which I prefer over ECM and Vibiemme. I always liked Expobars price/performance ratio. You also pay a lot extra for brands like ECM and Vibiemme for a better finish but not necessarily a better performing E61. This is comparing HX with HX and DB with DB.

Besides that you have all the differences in single boiler, double boiler, HX, pressostat versus PID etc like the ones mentioned already here.

For a first E61 you're probably good with a somewhat less expensive second hand HX. They do a great job and can be tamed easily, especially the Rocket models. You always need to know what the owner already did for maintenance as not descaling for 5 years and suddenly using it for a week can cost you a lot of money. Also dual boiler machines have a lot more electronics which can all break down. Maintenance is so important with espresso machines.

coffeegeekII (original poster)
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#6: Post by coffeegeekII (original poster) »

Hi all good people

These are all great responses, thanks a million! My last question I guess is what happens if any of these lines/brands is discontinued (as for example, potentially, with the Expobar factory above): isn't it the case that most parts are universal or readily available from other companies (eg I'd imagine 9/10 vibratory pumps in all these machines are Ulka pumps). Is there any downside, therefore, of buying a discontinued brand? Might it be eg that boilers are not universal?

Thanks again!

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BaristaBoy E61
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#7: Post by BaristaBoy E61 »

coffeegeekII wrote:Is there any downside, therefore, of buying a discontinued brand?
I don't think so, especially if it's priced accordingly. People here have been restoring lever machines that have been out of production 60-years ago. Most E-61 machine parts are ubiquitous and still widely available.
"You didn't buy an Espresso Machine - You bought a Chemistry Set!"

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Jeff
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#8: Post by Jeff »

Boilers, frame parts, and the like are not universal, but generally are not in need of replacement. I'd avoid anything that has a controller or display problem you can't live with. They are expensive to replace or repair. Valves, gauges, steam wands can often be substituted with a different one should they fail in a way that can't be fixed with common repair parts.

Some machines have a history of problems that are worth knowing about. A common one is running the heating element off a miniature pressurestat without a relay. While maybe ok on 230 V, they can fail regularly on 120 V.

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mrgnomer
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#9: Post by mrgnomer »

E61 machines around or before the dual boiler, PID, and later flow control evolution are predominantly pressurestat controlled single boiler heat exchangers. You paid a bit more for Sirai pressurestats and plumb in rotary but all the prosumers then (and mostly now) with the standard big brass lever and spring commercial E61s are using a standard part that's been around for a long time and that is said to keep costs down.

When material costs like copper went up the prices climbed past just dollar devaluation so more recent dual boiler PID machine prices are higher compared to single boiler HXs. Depending on when your machine was purchased I think if you base your selling price on your purchase price and its current condition a used older E61 pressurestat HX would go for less than a newer E61 dual boiler PID even if the older E61 HX needed more of a rebuild to make it reliably functional.

Knowing what I know now if I were getting into serious semi automatic espresso extraction I'd favour a used working E61 HX with a rotary pump for plumb in potential. Pair it with an old commercial grinder at a good price like a Super Jolly and there's a set up you can grow into. Use the savings from new for good burrs, parts replacement and mods like E61 flow control on the machine.
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baldheadracing
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#10: Post by baldheadracing »

erik82 wrote:Expobar made great machines but finish was a bit less so you paid a lot less then a comparable ECM or Vibiemme (except the Vibiemme SB which isn't all that good so cheap). Rocket E61s are also pretty expensive but they do perform great which I prefer over ECM and Vibiemme. I always liked Expobars price/performance ratio. You also pay a lot extra for brands like ECM and Vibiemme for a better finish but not necessarily a better performing E61. This is comparing HX with HX and DB with DB.
Just to clarify, I wasn't implying that Expobars are inferior performing, just that their prices when new were lower than some of the other machines mentioned.
coffeegeekII wrote:... My last question I guess is what happens if any of these lines/brands is discontinued (as for example, potentially, with the Expobar factory above): isn't it the case that most parts are universal or readily available from other companies (eg I'd imagine 9/10 vibratory pumps in all these machines are Ulka pumps). Is there any downside, therefore, of buying a discontinued brand? Might it be eg that boilers are not universal?
I would say that some machines could be a better deal used - or vice versa.

For example, as new Expobars have pretty much disappeared, the selling prices of used machines has fallen, making used Expobars more of a "good deal" (if the deal also takes into account the lower initial selling prices). On the other side, Lelit was known as a maker of budget-priced machines. The original Mara was one or the lowest-price E-61 HX's out there - lower than the equivalent Expobar IIRC. Lelit has stepped up their game in recent years - the current MaraX is a much nicer machine - and so older Mara's used prices have held their value more than, say, an Expobar - making the older Mara less of a "good deal."

Myself, I'd really want the stainless steel mushroom of the ECM/Profitec machines if I was keeping the machine stock. (If you add a flow control kit, then the mushroom usually gets replaced.)
-"Good quality brings happiness as you use it" - Nobuho Miya, Kamasada

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