Which cheap dual boiler espresso machine? Budget $1000-$2000

#1: Post by **igalk474** » September 29th, 2020, 10:07 pm

which is more recommended? (2 boilers, 2 pid, 2 pumps)...
for home, to pair with
EUREKA MIGNON SPECIALITA chrome 362.00€

----------------------------

Rancilio Silvia Pro
1,690.00$

Expobar Brewtus IV-R
1300$

CREM ONE: ONE 2B R-GSP Dual

Lelit PL92t Elizabeth V2 pid
1,599$

Profitec pro 300
1650$

ACS Minima
1600$

LUCCA A53 mini
1895$

ElRocio Zarre
1200$

Izzo Alex Duetto IV MK Plus
1,900.00€

La Spaziale S1 Mini Vivaldi II
1,250.00€

-------------------------

should i consider heat exchangers? like

ECM Mechanika V Slim
1850$

or dual boiler will be better

will it take 30 minutes to boil or faster?
if we don't have time to wait too long
or is it better to go straight to
ECM Synchronika
2 470,00 €
?

thanks

October 1st, 2020, 4:26 am

You've thrown a lot out there. I've not used many of these but a few thoughts. E61 groups tend to take a while to get up to temp. Think about a smart switch if you want to go that way. As for non E61s the information for times to get to temp are out there. All things being equal--and they usually aren't--double boilers tend to be a bit easier to use. Maybe take a look at the Lelit MaraX.

#3: Post by **pizzaman383** » October 1st, 2020, 7:47 am

The Expobar and La Spaziale are both tried and true (meaning to me refined over time) machines and at that price a really good value.

#4: Post by **MNate** » October 1st, 2020, 9:20 am

Many of those are popular on HB. Personally I think much of it is just personal preference... looks and layout. Read through some of their threads on here and you'll see people's personal opinions on them and you can weigh if that's an important thing to you or not.

Or if you told us more about what you're really wanting in it, that might help weigh the options too. Do you like to tinker? Steam a high priority? Style of espresso?

#5: Post by **Jeff** » October 1st, 2020, 10:55 am

Notably missing from that list is the Breville/Sage Dual Boiler. In that price range, it far outperforms all the listed candidates (or any E61 box in that price range) in terms of temperature stability and agility, preinfusion control, extraction profiling, and warm-up time.

If you were to go to the 3000 € range, the Decent Espresso DE1 would be on the short list.

Virtually any E61 box will take 40 minutes or more to come to thermal stability. While the boiler may heat up in minutes, the mass of brass in the group and its design to spill heat into the room has a long time constant.

#6: Post by HB » October 1st, 2020, 11:29 am

Jeff wrote:Virtually any E61 box will take 40 minutes or more to come to thermal stability.

You can rush it along in ~15 minutes by flushing once the steam boiler reaches full pressure, waiting a few minutes, flushing again, then starting your prep. Some purists may claim it's not perfectly temperature stable at that point, but it's close enough when I'm in a rush.

#7: Post by **Icejava** » October 1st, 2020, 12:30 pm

Jeff and John convinced me to return the MaraX and get the Breville/Sage Dual Boiler. No regrets, and the warmup time is noticeably faster. Shots are just as good, and I plan to slayer mod it shortly.

There are also some other neat mods if you wish to take it further (I am eyeing the Acaia scale insert). It's a very capable unit for the price.

#8: Post by **Bluenoser** » October 2nd, 2020, 7:18 pm

HB wrote:You can rush it along in ~15 minutes by flushing once the steam boiler reaches full pressure, waiting a few minutes, flushing again, then starting your prep. Some purists may claim it's not perfectly temperature stable at that point, but it's close enough when I'm in a rush.

Hi Dan.. I wish this were true on my HX. I'm wondering if your HX behaves quite a bit different than newer designs with the 2.5mm restrictor.. Here are results from my Pro500 with about a 2.6-2.7mm restrictor (was reamed out a bit for better performance). I've never been able to get the brew water close to 200F without a 40 minute warmup.. even with flushing.. I can get a 195-197F extraction in 35 minutes, but that is about the best I can get. Here's a test I just did.

PID set to 252F on Profitec Pro 500 PID (2 year old machine)

Time..............Temp on Erics Group Thermometer

5:00 ................... 79F
7:30.................... 95F
At this point the Boiler is up to temp 252F and pressure (1.4bar)
Did a 6 second flush

10:00..................135F
Did 7 second flush

15:00..................153F
At this point I pulled an actual shot for 20 seconds.

The Temp peaked at 175F and settled to 173F
My brew water would have been about 170-173F.
Pretty sure no one would want to drink this.

I then let it continue to heat until 25 min

25:00...................181F
Pulled shot for 20 seconds (left the same grounds in there)
Peaked at 194F then settled at 190F
Extraction likely about 188F

Now this might extract a dark roast okay.. but not a medium or lighter.

This flushing doesn't significantly decrease the warmup on my Profitec HX. (And it goes through a bunch of water at 50lb jugs up 15 stairs.. at retirement age..

. )

#9: Post by HB » October 2nd, 2020, 8:20 pm

Bluenoser wrote:Hi Dan.. I wish this were true on my HX. I'm wondering if your HX behaves quite a bit different than newer designs with the 2.5mm restrictor.

Good point, it makes sense that a restrictor would slow the thermosyphon. I suppose a slower warmup is a tradeoff against a shorter/no HX flush.

October 3rd, 2020, 10:53 am

Based on our experience with an Alex Duetto III, I would say that the Izzo Alex Duetto IV checks all the boxes for an E61 DB, particularly when plumbed in for line level preinfusion. It's also a very reliable solid performer and user serviceable.

Quite under rated IMO.