I need recommendations for low maintenance higher-end espresso machines. I make lattes, so good steam is needed too.

My Quick Mill needs more home maintenance than I'm willing to do. It's first year was great, but now that it's more like five years old I'm having to take it apart about once a year for some issue, like a OPV malfunctioning.

I used to have a Silvia, but gave it to some friends 10 years ago. Guess what? It's still working great, with very few issues over the years. I figure the difference is in the complexity of the machine. There's not that much to a Silvia, whereas a E61 machine is more like servicing your own motorcycle.

But I do want to make good espresso at home, and be able to properly steam milk for lattes.

Why not another Silvia? I'm open to that, but shots weren't at all as consistent, and the steam pressure was poor. (If I timed things perfectly I could get peak pressure even better than the QuickMill, but it took perfect timing, and it doesn't last long.)

Are small commercial machines lower maintenance? Or are they worse? Are double-boiler machines lower maintenance? If so, which models are well made? (I looked at review for the Breville double boiler machine -- but it appears to have poor parts in general.)

Thanks for your help and advice!

The best and cheapest is something like the Cafelat Robot and a Bellman Steamer.. At first, one might think that an odd recommendation. But the Robot can make better espresso than my $2500 HX and the Bellman is a good steamer. You can buy all for about $500-600.

All pump machines are going to require maintenance, especially after 5 years. Your other options might be a lever machine, like a Pavoni model.

However, the Robot has zero maintenance, no need to use a special water recipe, only 2 seals to replace. Easier tamping requirements.

Edit: I've read some of the others but rather than post again, I'll just edit this.I have a well made HX, but I don't think the E61 are really 'high-end'. I think they keep the brew water temp consistent during the shot, but are prone to that absolute point moving. For instance, you might want every shot to be 202F. Depending on the warm up time and temp of the group, you might be within a few degrees of that. But likely the shot itself will only vary by 1/2 degree. Really, the 'high-end' part of making espresso comes from the quality of the grinder and the experience and knowledge of the user. So first, I'd get a really good grinder and that is where I'd spend the money.. Such as a Monolith, or Niche. I didn't think that when I started, but have come to believe the advice most make on the importance of the grinder.

For low maintenance, there is absolutely nothing lower maintenance than a Robot or EspressoForge. The only downside of these is that if you use very light roasts, it might be hard to keep the brew water temp high enough. And before you dismiss it, I'd say these can make better espresso than many non-lever pump machines because the user can control preinfusion and extract at whatever profile they choose to pull (by controlling the pressure on the lever).

If you are looking at a really capable machine that is quite expensive, then the Dalla Corte looks exceptional but very expensive. The Decent provides maybe even more control at a much lower cost. But they are complex machines and as complexity increases, reliability will always decrease. The Breville 920 (this one specifically) is rated by its owners as one of the very best (at any cost) because of its brew water stability and its ability to be modified to provide pressure profiling.

If you want a good espresso, I think any of the DB machines would be very good. If you want to really fine tune espresso taste and learn about extraction, then I think you need to experiment with preinfusion and flow or pressure profiling. This seems to be where future machines are headed. If you want to get 'great' latte art, likely something that has over 1.5bar steam can provide better micro-foam.

But the grinder is a key factor as far as equipment is concerned

Breville Dual Boiler. Rarely ever needs anything besides common o-rings you can buy anywhere. Or PTFE washers for the steam valve, which are dirt cheap anywhere, but you rarely have to replace them. Most of the time you can re use them. All of these are accessible right under the top cover without having to disassemble anything.

I've heard that the pump might get tired. Never happened to me in eight years of owners. But it's the same Italian pump all the prosumer vibe machines use and is cheap to buy an 30 minutes to replace if you take your time.

As far as actual parts failure or breakage it's exceedingly rare as long as you use the same low or no scale water that the expensive brands require.

-Peter

maxrahder wrote:I need recommendations for low maintenance higher-end espresso machines. I make lattes, so good steam is needed too.

I'm giving up on my Quick Mill Andreja. Or maybe I'm giving up on the E61 group head.

My Quick Mill needs too much maintenance. It's first year was great, but now that it's more like five years old I'm having to take it apart about twice a year for some issue, like a OPV malfunctioning, and I need to take it in for an overhaul at the "local" repair shop once a year -- which is expensive, and it's a 2 hour drive. (I live in Madison, Wisconsin, and even though it isn't a small town exactly, there just aren't shops that service home espresso machines.) So I give up. I'm going to have one final annual service, then put it up for sale. This is actually my second QuickMill -- I got the previous one used (a mistake), and that was a headache too.

I used to have a Silvia, but gave it to some friends 10 years ago. Guess what? It's still working great, with very few issues over the years. I figure the difference is in the complexity of the machine. There's not that much to a Silvia, whereas a E61 machine is more like servicing your own motorcycle.

But I do want to make good espresso at home, and be able to properly steam milk for lattes.

Why not another Silvia? I'm open to that, but shots weren't at all as consistent, and the steam pressure was poor. (If I timed things perfectly I could get peak pressure even better than the QuickMill, but it took perfect timing, and it doesn't last long.) The QuickMill was initially a much better machine.

Are small commercial machines lower maintenance? Or are they worse? Are double-boiler machines lower maintenance? If so, which models are well made? (I looked at review for the Breville double boiler machine -- but it appears to have poor parts in general.)

Thanks for your help and advice!

Since Quickmill shares the same parts as most other espresso machines you might be better off with a saturated group but then that's usually a big cost.
I am not sold on the looks of the Breville double boiler and after owning 2 Breville espresso machines I can't see myself recommending one to anyone else



Randy

I've never owned any other Breville than the BDB, and by my rough estimate, considering cost of maintenance, frequency of maintenance, and ease of maintenance, and having been around here since 2009 and CG since 2004, it is subjectively the most reliable machine I've ever heard of in the upper echelons of temperature stability.

-Peter

I really like my ECM Synchronika. Everything in it is built to commercial standards, although I don't know if it has a commercial rating. I have not had it long enough to know if the maintenance is low. But, it has an e61, to which you may be adverse.

The Strega TOP or the Profitec 800 would be good choices in conventional-looking machines. They are both spring levers, so are very simple. While they have a vibe pump, it isn't used for pressure, so should last a long time. Even so, they are cheap and easy to replace.

For absolute simplicity, quality of construction and for sure low maintenance, I suggest an Elektra Micro Casa A Leva in Chrome. No pumps, no PID, just a very high-quality lever machine that only needs a few gasket/O-rings from rare time to time. The down-side for some is the appearance, but for others, it's arguably the most interesting and nicest looking. Being a spring lever the learning curve is lower than a fully manual lever like a La Pavoni.

Of course, there's the La Pavoni, if you don't mind the learning curve. There's slightly less to go wrong than a spring lever and it's a bit safer to operate (spring lever can pop up and hit the unaware in the teeth ). I'd opt for the larger, Professional one, as it has stronger steam and a pressure gauge, in addition to the obvious benefit of not having to be refilled as often. Also, it is available in several decorative variations. But I'd stick to chrome, as exposed brass, copper and so on will eventually discolour and pit.

So, as I reread this, I sound like some sort of lever fanatic. I'm not, actually. But I think if I were to be buying a machine today I might be tempted to go this route.

If we were to replace our Izzo Alex Duetto III E61 machine I would replace it with the Alex Duetto IV. Our machine has been very reliable and I've had enough experience doing a complete citric acid cleaning that I would not worry about scale, cleaning or doing most any repairs myself.

Of course a Profitec 800 might be the replacement if we were to choose a lever...

YMMV

Original poster here... First, regarding the phrase "high end" -- I mean high end in the sense that it makes very good coffee. All things being equal, I'd rather pay less!

This is a lot of good advice. I like the lever ideas. I'll research those a bit. My first espresso maker was actually a la Pavoni Europiccola. It was a wedding present (from Zabar's, if I remember correctly), and I used it for many years. The la Pavoni is beautiful, and does a fine job with shots, but had poor steam. When the Silvia came out -- and sort of revolutionized home espresso --I got one of those, and used it for a long long time. With practice you can pull pretty good shots. Steaming is a challenge though. Then I got a used QM, which was awesome, but a maintenance headache. Then I got the current Andreja. Both QM pull consistent good shots (although the steam pressure is slightly disappointing). But then I got into my current cycle of maintenance headaches. There's nothing as depressing as waking up, turning on the machine, and discovering steam hissing out of some valve you didn't even know existed.

The bottom line is that in my current anti-complexity mid set, I'll gravitate toward whatever has fewer moving parts, yet still makes good coffee. All I want is to make latte as good as I get at Blue Bottle. Is that asking too much? And I don't mind ceremony, so I don't mind the idea of turning on the stove and kettle in order to get my latte.

Thanks for the great advice!

maxrahder wrote:Original poster here... First, regarding the phrase "high end" -- I mean high end in the sense that it makes very good coffee. All things being equal, I'd rather pay less!

...Both QM pull consistent good shots (although the steam pressure is slightly disappointing). But then I got into my current cycle of maintenance headaches. There's nothing as depressing as waking up, turning on the machine, and discovering steam hissing out of some valve you didn't even know existed.

The bottom line is that in my current anti-complexity mid set, I'll gravitate toward whatever has fewer moving parts, yet still makes good coffee. All I want is to make latte as good as I get at Blue Bottle. Is that asking too much? And I don't mind ceremony, so I don't mind the idea of turning on the stove and kettle in order to get my latte.

Thanks for the great advice!

A machine with saturated brew group temperature stability, walk up and pull, always right without ritual, and only the most basic replacement of o-rings and seals for long term maintenance? Check. Feed it good water and last forever? Check, (well eight years and going strong). Two speed (Slayer) flow control right out of the box, or program the pre infusion time and pressure to run on its own? Check. Reconfigure two tubes for full beginning to end, continuously variable on the fly flow control (better than Slayer)? Check. If something were to break (rare), for the price of a service call, includes shipping both ways and they send you a fitted box for it. Check. Easily plumbable and converted to external (under the sink), rotary pump? Check.

And it still remains that even with all the temperature stability and cutting edge extraction capability, the real ace in the hole still remains it's base reliability and DIY friendly routine maintenance. Extremely low downtime, essentially zero, because almost any maintenance takes only minutes, and big parts don't break. Another thing I've noticed over the years, even neglected maintenance rarely results in actual damage that requires replacement of parts. The only thing that will kill this machine is the same thing that will kill any machine... using water that causes scale.

-Peter