1st post, lurked for a while! Looking to buy a machine. I have a 10 year old La Pavoni lever which has too many issues to address. I just don't have the time or the free hands do another lever. I want to upgrade to a dual boiler. I make a cappuccino every morning, and will sometimes make an espresso.

I have been looking at Vesuvius. I like that I would have good control over extraction, brew temp, and steam boiler. The machine was reviewed here, but seems to mostly unpopular. Vendors have even taken it off their websites. To me it seems comparable to a slayer, speedster or LM GS3 in a prosumer use. What am I missing here? Is there another machine that has dual stainless boilers with PID, stainless tubing lines, plumb-in water, gear pump with PID for profiling, and an E61 group head?

This is the review got me interested in the machine.
Vesuvius Espresso Machine Review

Edit, also I have ruled out a DE. My brother had problems with his, and it forever turn me off of them.

(the tl;dr; is, you can get more for less$. A dual boiler is not necessary for great espresso).
The Vesuvius was on my short list, You can read my decision in my blog Chapter 160 - On Choosing A New Espresso Machine - Part Two, and continue through the following few chapters or so from there. It has been about a year with my current machine and I do not regret the purchase.

Welcome to H-B!

Quite a list of features. I agree with Randy that:
* Having all of them doesn't bring you good espresso
* Good espresso is very possible without significant gyrations without many of those, arguably without all of them.

While going from a La Pavoni to a high-end machine is tempting, I think you can get what you're looking for by examining the usability and repeatability of the options you're considering. I'd also argue that going with something with "infinite flexibility" can easily go counter to the concept of avoiding "addressing issues". With that flexibility comes both the reality of the choices, and the temptation of the choices.

There are reasons why E61-style groups are very popular on home machines where cost is an object, and much less popular on upper-range commercial machines where performance is paramount. There's arguably aesthetics involved as well, but I don't consider an E61 group an advantage, and can be a temperature-stability disadvantage compared to close-coupled or "saturated" groups.

In my opinion, the Vesuvius was too early for its features, and is too under-featured compared to competitive machines with flow-valve kits. You seem to have found that previous dealers are no longer advertising it, which would concern me as well.

I don't blame you for walking away from the DE1. You have to love a machine that is forever in beta and learn to ignore the constant din of marketing supporting its "perfection" every time doubts are raised.

Plumb-in is not an end-all. Many, if not most water supplies need not only filtration, but also softening. In some areas, or for some palates, RO with remineralization is needed. They also arguably need a positive turn-on (AC power needed to activate flow) tied to a leak detector. How much water are you really going to go through? Call it 100 mL per cup, a couple liters a week? Is it really that stressful to fill a reservoir a couple times a week?

At the US$4,500 or so a Vesuvius was going for and $1,000 for some hopper-style grinder, I'd bet someone with modest experience could pull comparable or better shots with a Lelit Bianca (or equivalent ECM/Profitec with flow kit) and a P64 with SSP burrs suiting your espresso style.

Edit:
If the Argos lives up to people's hopes, that and a P64 would likely fit the "nothing from your list, but comparable or better espresso in the cup" at under $3,000 with grinder.

DF64 Grinder with SSP high uniformity burrs ($700) and the Lelit Bianca V2 ($2600) and you will make unbelievable espresso that will rival anything. With grinders and prosumer machines, there is definitely a law of diminishing returns. Ymmv

Thanks Jeff. The lever has definitely made me value control. It's feedback rich, but poor information. You're just blind to all pressures and temperatures. I love saturated groups, but I thought an E61 would be easier to fix/maintain. For temp stability, I plan to let it warm up a very long time. Lelit Bianca is what my brother got after his DE. I have used it and love it. It is the great machine at great value, definitely runner up for me. Argos looks really fun, but I don't have the free hands to for a lever anymore. With a young child pulling me away, I need to push buttons and be able to leave the machine to work.

As far in the cup comparison: H-B had a few comparisons and the Vesuvius really held its own.
V vs S begins (Vesuvius vs Slayer)
Vesuvius "in the cup", how good is it really?
La Marzocco GS3 MP Strada ~ Vesuvius in the cups

Jeff wrote:Welcome to H-B!

Quite a list of features. I agree with Randy that:
* Having all of them doesn't bring you good espresso
* Good espresso is very possible without significant gyrations without many of those, arguably without all of them.

While going from a La Pavoni to a high-end machine is tempting, I think you can get what you're looking for by examining the usability and repeatability of the options you're considering. I'd also argue that going with something with "infinite flexibility" can easily go counter to the concept of avoiding "addressing issues". With that flexibility comes both the reality of the choices, and the temptation of the choices.

Thanks Randy. That's quite the blog. In general your right that is the future of espresso, but Decent isn't the company for me. Companies are people and people only have one reputation. When you can't deliver a machine that turns on, you are out for good. I especially don't like having to ship something back to Hong Kong. If they were in my backyard, maybe I would give them a second chance.

For now, I want something built like a tank that only breaks easily replaced parts. This espresso machine will be right between my living room and kitchen, so I would prefer shiny metal to plastic. I've got plenty of space maybe a compact 2 group.

Randy G. wrote:(the tl;dr; is, you can get more for less$. A dual boiler is not necessary for great espresso).
The Vesuvius was on my short list, You can read my decision in my blog Chapter 160 - On Choosing A New Espresso Machine - Part Two, and continue through the following few chapters or so from there. It has been about a year with my current machine and I do not regret the purchase.

I totally understand the "push button, sit back" approach. You'd either need volumetric dosing or some electronic way to stop the shot and a connected scale to stop-at-weight.

Something to think about is that spring levers, once cocked and released, do their thing on their own, very repeatedly. The "worst" thing that can happen is you extract 10-20 g more than you expected as you were distracted from pulling the cup at the "right" time. With a good-quality, medium or lighter roast, it should still be pretty drinkable. It's not like a pump-driven machine where it will happily pump a liter or more onto the counter, a lot more if you're plumbed in.

Jeff, tell me more about connected scales. It sounds robust enough. Who is doing a good one? As dumb as it sounds, I really want to be able to operate the machine with one hand (kid takes the other hand and hip). Does that eliminate most spring levers, or are some stable enough that you don't have to hold the portafilter when charging?

I can't comment on how stable the Argos is with one arm full. I'm not sure I'd want to find out I was mistaken with boiling water and an infant involved.

On connected scales, I consider the Skale II to be a good choice on robustness with a reasonable price tag. There are two parts to the "connected". The first is reading the scale data, estimating flow rate, then determining when to trigger a stop. That I've got proven code for that in a contemporary programming language. The potentially hard part is somehow telling your machine to "stop making espresso". I'm not aware of any of the E61-style machines that you can remotely stop. Some of the volumetric ones would be good "hacking targets", but I don't know of one that has a convenient plug on the back labeled "stop flow".

Thanks I am going to expand my search to volumetric machines. Maybe down the road I can get a spring lever!