Upgrading: La Marzocco Linea Mini vs. Victoria Arduino Prima - Page 8

#71: Post by **Shawnaks5** » March 8th, 2021, 10:00 am

Hey Dave,

Thank you so much for all of your insight on the E1P. I've been interested in this machine and am debating buying one and putting it on a small coffee cart. Question....I've noticed some other folks including myself have changed to a .6mm Gicleur on the LMLM. I think I like the flow rate from this size better than the stock .8mm. Have you measured the flow rate from the group in 30 seconds on the E1P?

#72: Post by **Transporter** » March 8th, 2021, 10:13 am

Terranova wrote:In the German forum there are some "shocked" users, about quality issues with this machine.
Some pictures here: https://www.kaffee-netz.de/threads/e1-p ... 70/page-10

Anyone who understands how laser cutting works will explain that this is a regular occurrence when your cutting stainless steel plate with a protective fill. The more intricate design in the sheet, the more you will see the protective film roll or tar the stainless. The area with dark tar results from the heat burning off glue during processing, while the rest of the part retains a protective covering. This is normal and has no impact on the finish's quality, use some Windex to clean off the tar or any solution that removes tar from cars to dissolve the tar without rubbing it.

The gap shown under the group head is typical to most machines as you have various plates used to form the machine's shell. Once again, this is not a quality issue. Some machines have an enclosed design like the GS3 that weld's the group head to the boiler, unlike the Victoria Arduino that uses a block. This design allows users to access the area or even replace the component, which is why you will see multiple panels that will enable easy access.

#73: Post by **Transporter** » March 8th, 2021, 10:25 am

Shawnaks5 wrote:Hey Dave,

Thank you so much for all of your insight on the E1P. I've been interested in this machine and am debating buying one and putting it on a small coffee cart. Question....I've noticed some other folks including myself have changed to a .6mm Gicleur on the LMLM. I think I like the flow rate from this size better than the stock .8mm. Have you measured the flow rate from the group in 30 seconds on the E1P?

Hi Dave,

I decided to go with Prima myself to use it for events because of the smaller design and lower electrical demands, which will help me stop tripping breakers if I attach another appliance. Plus, they also make the Eagle one which allows me to scale to commercial applications with the same design.

The Victoria Arduino doesn't have a saturated group head. In theory, if the tubing is large enough to handle the volume, the restriction will probably be in the diffuser plate, which is an easy replacement.

#74: Post by **Transporter** » March 8th, 2021, 10:26 am

Transporter wrote:Hi Dave,
Hi Dave,

I decided to go with Prima myself to use it for events because of the smaller design and lower electrical demands, which will help me stop tripping breakers if I attach another appliance. Plus, they also make the Eagle one which allows me to scale to commercial applications with the same design.

The Victoria Arduino doesn't have a saturated group head. In theory, if the tubing is large enough to handle the volume, the restriction will probably be in the diffuser plate, which is an easy replacement.

#75: Post by **MTN Gert** » March 8th, 2021, 12:37 pm

I can make a more precise measurement if needed but without portafilter in it produces about 50g water every 15 seconds so roughly 100g per 30 seconds

March 8th, 2021, 12:48 pm

That's a huge difference from the stock Linea Mini which I think is supposed to be 400ml/30s, so roughly 4X more!

What affect would that have on dialing in a shot? Always grind finer on the Linea but compensate with temperature?

#77: Post by **Transporter** » March 8th, 2021, 1:20 pm

drH wrote: That's a huge difference from the stock Linea Mini which I think is supposed to be 400ml/30s, so roughly 4X more!

What affect would that have on dialing in a shot? Always grind finer on the Linea but compensate with temperature?

Hi drH,

Once the water saturates the coffee puck and fills the puck's open area, the pressure will build and extract the espresso under the build-up pressure. The flow would only be critical if it did not provide adequate water supply in relation to pressure. The finer grind setting helps in the puck's initial prewetting, where water introduction contributes to the finer particles absorbing the water uniformly. I think it's more important to have a consistent grind uniform and proper dose in the basket. The Prima is designed based on extensive industry knowledge of Victoria Arduino. It's not a new concept but refined from the various experience of building reliable equipment and contribution from consultants like James Hoffmann that help refine the machine.

This is like looking at pressure washers, where you have a steady flow of water, but the variation in pressure will output different amounts of water. The higher pressure will result in a lower output of water and doesn't always translate into more effective cleaning. I think temperature stability and control, along with a good grinder, will be a more critical variable than just the water flow output.

#78: Post by **Terranova** » March 8th, 2021, 1:22 pm

Transporter wrote: The gap shown under the group head is typical to most machines as you have various plates used to form the machine's shell.

The laser cut wasn't the issue as it was just some burned foil which is totally normal.
Some owners had that gap under the brew group and others not. Maybe Victoria Arduino wanted to make easy access for some users, but not for others.

#79: Post by **drH** » March 8th, 2021, 1:39 pm

Transporter wrote:Hi drH,

Once the water saturates the coffee puck and fills the puck's open area, the pressure will build and extract the espresso under the build-up pressure. The flow would only be critical if it did not provide adequate water supply in relation to pressure. The finer grind setting helps in the puck's initial prewetting, where water introduction contributes to the finer particles absorbing the water uniformly. I think it's more important to have a consistent grind uniform and proper dose in the basket. The Prima is designed based on extensive industry knowledge of Victoria Arduino. It's not a new concept but refined from the various experience of building reliable equipment and contribution from consultants like James Hoffmann that help refine the machine.

This is like looking at pressure washers, where you have a steady flow of water, but the variation in pressure will output different amounts of water. The higher pressure will result in a lower output of water and doesn't always translate into more effective cleaning. I think temperature stability and control, along with a good grinder, will be a more critical variable than just the water flow output.

Thanks. I think what you're saying makes sense and also aligns with what I've read elsewhere about the Linea Mini. Perhaps this is why the LMLM is sometimes described as being unforgiving to puck prep, but will give great results if the grinder and routine are good.
But it sounds like the E1P would be a bit more forgiving.

#80: Post by **111a111sk** » March 16th, 2021, 9:11 am

I was also deciding between VA Prima and LM GS3 AV. And I'm 90% decided for Prima. I got 2 excellent offers, GS3 being 17% more than Prima. But I can't really see any major advantages to GS3 except being time-proven. But since VA/Simonelli isn't a small new company either, I believe expert design and excellent support can be expected from them too. The start-up scheduler is missing from VA atm but as I've read it's in development. The biggest fail I see is not including a brew pressure gauge. Why, VA? It could've been combined in one with the steam boiler gauge like on 50 other machines.

The 1.5l boiler on GS3 is rather discouraging when I think how long will it take to exchange the water in it, using maybe 10% at once and reheating the rest next time... I know, stainless steel has most likely zero impact on the taste.
That's also surely prolonging the heat-up time.

The future of smartphone connectivity was mentioned here. Bluetooth has been around for 30 years (yea you sure are old) and it's most likely staying for another 30, looking at the emergence of IoT and BT modernisation. I think it's fantastic that they're not putting in any button or touch UI that would certainly age. Or at least keeping it super minimal, reminds me of what Bugatti is doing in cars. Look at how outdated the touchscreen UI on Bezzerra or Rocket looks already. Worst case VA can get a HW update like the GS3 did.

The two best espressos I've ever had were both from Victoria Arduino machines (Jonas Reindl and Pelican in Vienna). Coincidence?

And lastly, I like the VA design much more.

// Just published: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ma1-xv2BMTo and the guy says VA portafilters are stainless steel