Upgrading from my first espresso machine (Ascaso Steel PID)

#1: Post by **alpinito1** » October 28th, 2021, 4:31 am

Dear all,

I am rather new in this, and I have had an ascaso steel PID combined with a Barazza sette 270 grinder for a couple of years now.

Although I am happy with both of them, I realized my machine is not very stable in temperature and since it has a single boiler, I cannot steam and brew a coffee simultaneously. Therefore I would like to upgrade my machine. (To be honest those are the reasons I found to try to convince myself (and my partner!) it is a good idea to change, but in reality it is mainly because I just wanna upgrade my machine

you might understand... )

I mainly use the machine to make espresso and from time to time some milk based beverages.

I came across some second hand machines that look good. So these are the options I am considering now :

- ECM CLASSIKA PID 850€
- Rocket Giotto Evoluzione V2 (2016 without PID) 850€
- Bezzera mitica top mn 900€
- Breville Dual Boiler 650€

What do you think about these machines and the prices?
Is my grinder going to perform well with those machines?

Any advice is welcome.

Greetings from France

D,

#2: Post by **drH** » October 28th, 2021, 7:13 am

Of those machines, I've owned a Classika for several years and it was built to last. It's not convenient if you have to make many milk drinks back to back because you have to let the boiler reach steam temperature. That said, for espresso it was very forgiving, easy to use, and reliable.

October 28th, 2021, 7:33 am

Thank you Dustin, it actually sounds like the kind of use I have. Though I am not sure how this machine compares to the others.

#4: Post by **luvmy40** » October 28th, 2021, 7:42 am

I have only owned one of the machines you list, The BDB.

The prices you list all look good from my, U.S. veiw point. I understand there are significant differences in Euro pricing on some machines, so I may be over estimating the value/$.

Does the Bezzera have PID?

IMHO, the Bezzera(if PID) looks to me to be the only one listed that would perform on par with the BDB, and look better doing it!

The BDB is by far the best value on your list, if it is the 920 series and not the 900, and as long as you are capable and willing to do some minor regular maintenance.

$0.02, YMMV

October 28th, 2021, 12:07 pm

Hi Rich,
I checked with the owner and the Bezzera is not equipped with temperature PID. What do you think?
Best

#6: Post by **Jeff** » October 28th, 2021, 2:10 pm

A well-maintained Sage/BDB is likely a good choice. Knowing what kind of water they've been using, if they've run the "Descale" cycle, and if routine maintenance has been performed would better let you determine if you've got a good deal, or a good deal of problems in the future.

The Classika looks like a solid, PID-controlled, single-boiler unit. If you're not making more than one or two milk drinks in a session, I would prefer it over any of the HX options you've listed.

In my opinion, a PID on a conventional HX machine doesn't add much, if anything, to brew-temperature control. HX machines without active control of the group temperature require some kind of flush routine to manage brew temperature, or usually have a compromised thermosiphon that can lead to long wait times between shots.

#7: Post by **luvmy40** » October 28th, 2021, 2:13 pm

Well, from all accounts, the Bezzera is a quality made machine. I lived with a single group, non PID, HX semi auto (CMA) for years and made some excellent espresso with it.

I do happen to be partial to the BDB and I am sure that skews my oppinion.

As always, with used equipment you are never sure what you will get unless you have access to inspect fully before buying. Were they maintained properly? What quality water was used, for how long? Etc.

If you do decide to go with the BDB, I would recommend just changing all the steam circuit O-Rings as a matter of course. Theyare cheap and the work is relatively easy. There are very few, if any cases of the brew circuit O-Rings leaking. I might even suggest going with the aflas O-Rings, though I have not used them yet myself. They are, on paper the better choice.

#8: Post by **walr00s** » October 28th, 2021, 3:39 pm

There's people on this forum getting some pretty awesome value out of the BDB, and I understand that it's recommended for its potential based on what you get for the purchase price AND what you can get through modification...

But I will say that in my short time here on HB, it is easily, far and away, the machine that I see the most maintenance help requests for. That may be a simple result of there being far more of them out there in the world being used by home baristas (no clue if that's true, but it seems a likely explanation)...but it also might be because for a cheap price and lots of features, you're getting cheap(er) components that are more likely to break.

October 28th, 2021, 9:36 pm

I think, and this could be my bias coloring my thoughts, that the reason there are more failures reported on the BDB is likely due to the fact that most who buy them treat them as disposable rather than performing regular maintenance. They are certainly not indestructible, but then neither is any other machine of any kind.

I spent far more $ maintaining my CMA single group than I have, or likely ever will taking care of my BDB.

October 30th, 2021, 6:53 am

Is there any owner of the Rocket Giotto Evoluzione V2 that could give his opinion?

All the comments I've seen of the BDB are very good but I think the other machines look better.... If the shots you can obtain from those are comparable, maybe we would lean towards one one of the other machines....

Thanks again