Upgrading espresso machine for no future regrets - Page 2

#11: Post by **Primacog** » June 24th, 2022, 1:07 am

I have never regretted getting a commercial spring lever machine more than 10 years ago. The izzo pompei is robust, well made and of simple construction and having the incredible la san marco grouphead. For sheer satisfaction (a very subjective thing) a commercial lever to me is the top of the heap.

I would agree that if you like light roasts, you should get either a lever or a profiling pump machine like the decent de-1.

#12: Post by **Ypuh** » June 24th, 2022, 3:40 am

I get a feeling that the TS has been reading a bit too much of what the internet says, and just wants to have quality espresso consistently. If you follow what most afficionados write, you quickly start building an image/tunnel vision that you only want light roasts for which you need controllable temperatures and ideally flow profiles. This all requires equipment which is a big big step up from the Breville.

Medium roasts can also be very tasty, and a machine like the Mara-X or a grinder upgrade together with quality beans will bring already you more flavor than what you probably expected even before determining the roast- or flow profile. There's a few steps in between what you have and what you describe here.

I'm not saying there's a right or wrong here or that I know exactly what the TS desires, however I recognize the thought-process. Keep in the back of your head that it's usually the people who fell off the deep-end that share their knowledge and experiences. Even if you skipped all the steps and bought the same equipment (you're going to need more than a Specialita and Mara-X to experience their advice), you still might find you simply don't like the taste. In my opinion there's a big gap between extracting the best from very light roasts and enjoying an everyday light-to-medium roast. Some of the tastiest coffees I had were medium roasts which I preferred over most light roast (the beans were however on the more expensive side though).

Most espresso enthusiasts I spoke outside of HB don't even like very light roasts that much since they're a lot harder to get right. They do enjoy fruity coffees, but that's not exclusive to only light roasts and saves you from buying the most expensive equipment out there. For filter coffee it's a different story. Talking purely espresso 1:2-2.5 ratio here.

#13: Post by **luvmy40** » June 25th, 2022, 8:01 am

I understand not wanting to make "major modifications" to new machine. However, the BDB can be modified in les than a minute, without taking the top off, to give excellent flow control with the water valve. You need only to reposition the outer knob on the spindle to get full functionality, both as flow control to the group and as a hot water dispenser.

Seriously, less than a minute and one screwdriver. The BDB is by far the best bang for the buck in espresso.

#14: Post by **Vindibona1** » June 25th, 2022, 10:40 pm

Disclaimer: I don't know 10% of what some of these guys know, though I've been brewing on 3 cheap machines for over 10+years (the last one being a modded Gaggia Classic) and wanted my LAST machine. The folks on the forum will tell you how I agonized and probably aggravated a few with my questions, thoughts, etc, driving both them and me nuts until I finally made a decision. I cannot tell you how many YouTube videos I watched. I have had my new machine 1 week as of yesterday. My own agony was probably only exceeded by my wife's, this forum and the vendors I called :0.

Going in I thought I had a budget in mind, around $1800, though it was never a hard budget. Initially I thought I was just going to buy a Rancilio Silvia Pro X but a few things about it changed my mind and I was enamored by the E61 grouphead. As I wanted to buy my "last" machine, I had brieflly considered the Lelit MaraX and Elizabeth. The Liz was too pedestrian looking as was the Profitec Pro 300. And though I think the MaraX is probably the best general choice for an HX, the 3 position switch bothered me. Size was also an issue for me and I briefly considered the Bianca V2 (the prices on the new V3 have just a lot) but external water tank was an issue. I was also looking at the Profitec 600 and visually it just didn't fit what I pictured, especially being 12" wide.

With my old Gaggia I didn't do a lot of milk, but what I'm discovering is that I didn't do milk with the GC because it was laborious and the results were mediocre at best. So I was telling myself that I didn't need to spend more money on a dual boiler. I swore the night before I though I had a decision that I could skip the dual boiler with a single boiler w/E61 and thought for sure I was going to buy an ECM Classika PID/Clive Special Edition.

There was one other machine that I'd looked at, but wasn't at the top of my list because I just didn't hear the brand a lot; Quick Mill. The machine is their QM67.What kept me coming back to the Quick Mill QM67 was that it was only 11" wide which was was only 1" wider then the ECM Classika. The MaraX was 9" after moving some things around the 11" width was doable, but I didn't want to go wider.

One of the reasons I was turned off about the QM67 was because of some of the older photos. It seems that Quick Mill does a crap job of updating its photos and user manual. But because of the width and features I was still curious. Talking to a rep at a reputable place, he assured me that the ugly diagonal badging was gone,and the looks of the NEW QM67 were super and it had some new features that to my amazement were still not in the user manual!

I dunno... There is just something about the way I talk to people that has them offering me deals, strangely, often without me asking. At the end of my conversation with this sales person, I was no longer thinking the ECM and purchased the Quick Mill QM67. I had it in two days, delivered as promised. With what I knew about Profitec/ECM's builds I was expecting something less than what I received. Yes, I paid a few hundred $ more than I would have with the ECM, but I knew that I'd miss the money less 30 seconds after doing the purchase of what I really wanted and I'd remember that I cheated myself over $ and compromised. Initially I didn't see the ECM as a compromise beyond the 2nd boiler, but I can see now that it would have been. I'm making milk drinks every day now, something I didn't imagine even a week ago. There is nothing I don't like about the Quick Mill other than it does have a long warmup time- but I took care of that with a smart plug and an Alexa routine.

So at this time, one small week after purchase with the QM67 doing everything I could ask it to do, I would just say to have a look at it. And BTW... i wrote a letter to Quick Mill in Italy, telling them to get off their posteriors and update their photos, user manuals and create an updated video or two. IMO their marketing is what keeps their popularity down. Now I just have to learn to make espressos up to the quality level that the QM67 will let me.

#15: Post by **Jeff** » June 25th, 2022, 11:32 pm

Ypuh and Jim hit things pretty well.

Having worked up from a Saeco Rio Vapore buzz box years ago, it's hard for me to point to a "regret". The one machine I really didn't like I wouldn't have known without trying one. (Hint: James Bond is the true originator of the "turbo" shot)

These days I have a Robot, an open-boiler, manual-lever VAM, and a DE1 that I use. I'd be able to make great espresso with any of those, or a MaraX, or Bianca, or ...

The key is that you pick coffees that work well with the gear in front of you, your water, skills, and tastes.

It's hard work to extract a light roast well. Good ones are silly expensive. Even then people with thousands of dollars in equipment can all agree that "this month's coffee-club selection is best used to season grinders or compost."

Sometimes it's a relief to throw a handful of quality espresso-intended beans into a hand grinder, dump them into the Robot or VAM, and press down for espresso. It just works.

I reliably make great espresso the random days I'm in at the office with a Robot, a $160 hand grinder and tap water. I set my expectations by pulling George Howell Alchemy blend (at least this month) rather than light roasts.

Where I think remorse comes into play is when the expectations are unreasonable. One part is very few people are willing to point out anything bad about their $3,000 or $5,000 wonder-purchase. Another is that high-end gear can reveal more in the cup. All is not good. It can reveal all your prep flaws and that of your other gear. It will slap you in the face until you realize that well over half the "specialty" coffee out there has significant defects in the greens, roast, or both. High-end gear also won't magically make your coffee better.

The one thing I'd consider that is at least reasonably knowable from photos and owner descriptions is usability. No matter how great the espresso, if you burn your forearm weekly reaching for some switch, that's not a great choice. I've got a grinder on my counter now that probably makes great espresso. It also screams like a banshee. I'm still seasoning the burrs and already wondering how long I'll put up with it.

June 26th, 2022, 12:57 am

For what its worth here is my opinion on the matter and i have a different take than everyone else. I've seen the buy once cry once post from plenty of people on here and i could agree with that but at the same time i have had a few machines from an early BBE to 2 different bezzera's and finally an eagle one prima that i love.

But i will say that sometimes i feel like i rushed into buying a sportcar when all i really needed was a dependable daily driver. What i mean by that is the machine has so many features that sometime i don't feel like i make use of. One of the users already wrote about really only needing certain features that lead you to a tunnel vision mentality and i agree with that. There a lot of people that lean towards light roast these day that call for equipment that tend to cost quite a bit more for this shot that your told will just be mind blowing.

Personally i say o to as many places as you can that will let you try the machines and see what works best, i do love my Prima but i often feel like i don't use it and its features enough to warrant it and i make drinks on it once every few days but when i do i make about 5 or 6 just together more use out of it so i don't feel guilty for not using it enough.

Long story short just ask yourself if its something you really need or if its just something you really want but thats just my 2 cents.

eric

July 2nd, 2022, 10:57 am

another_jim wrote:Given a competent grinder, you can get a tasty shot with a light roast from any espresso machine by grinding finer and dosing lower. But this also gives subdued shots, like Italian style espresso, rather than the more in your face shots you et in 3rd wave cafes. I like this, and generally use 7/14 gram doses along with normal length preinfusions. For this style, the Mara X will do fine. The floating boiler pressure and constant thermosyphon temperature allows you to walk up and make shots without flushing or any other kind of thermal management, just like a double boiler machine. The longer preinfusion gives you some extra leeway for light roasts, but you'll still need to dose low.

When you have really light roasts, especially of washed coffees, this approach can have you grinding so fine and dosing so low, that you get watery shots. This is when profiling and lever machines become useful, since you can dose and high and grind fine, then do a long preinfusion and a dropping pressure shot. I do not know how light you want to go; but if you do want to go there; you'll want some kind of profiling ability.

This is really helpful! I don't know that I'd heard the parameters spelled out so clearly before. And it's good to know that the relatively small temperature variance on the MaraX shouldn't be an issue relative to the need to control the pressure/flow.

Primacog wrote:I would agree that if you like light roasts, you should get either a lever or a profiling pump machine like the decent de-1.

I keep going back and forth on the DE-1. For one thing, yes, it would do everything I want AND do it in a tiny footprint, which is great! But on the other hand... I bought the Decent Scale (1.1) and while it works, it sometimes has some odd quirks that make me feel like I'm using someone's hobby rather than a product.

luvmy40 wrote:I understand not wanting to make "major modifications" to new machine. However, the BDB can be modified in les than a minute, without taking the top off, to give excellent flow control with the water valve. You need only to reposition the outer knob on the spindle to get full functionality, both as flow control to the group and as a hot water dispenser.

Seriously, less than a minute and one screwdriver. The BDB is by far the best bang for the buck in espresso.

Huh! What I had read sounded much more in-depth than that; I may need to take a look again. And it is true that even without any mods, the BDB's pre-infusion is at least as capable as the similarly-priced Elizabeth.

Vindibona1 wrote:There was one other machine that I'd looked at, but wasn't at the top of my list because I just didn't hear the brand a lot; Quick Mill. The machine is their QM67.What kept me coming back to the Quick Mill QM67 was that it was only 11" wide which was was only 1" wider then the ECM Classika. The MaraX was 9" after moving some things around the 11" width was doable, but I didn't want to go wider.

I'll have to take a look! Size is definitely an issue, and the QM could be a good choice that could get a flow control upgrade later on, only if and when it's necessary.

allegedlybrewing wrote:For what its worth here is my opinion on the matter and i have a different take than everyone else. I've seen the buy once cry once post from plenty of people on here and i could agree with that but at the same time i have had a few machines from an early BBE to 2 different bezzera's and finally an eagle one prima that i love.

But i will say that sometimes i feel like i rushed into buying a sportcar when all i really needed was a dependable daily driver. What i mean by that is the machine has so many features that sometime i don't feel like i make use of. One of the users already wrote about really only needing certain features that lead you to a tunnel vision mentality and i agree with that. There a lot of people that lean towards light roast these day that call for equipment that tend to cost quite a bit more for this shot that your told will just be mind blowing.

Personally i say o to as many places as you can that will let you try the machines and see what works best, i do love my Prima but i often feel like i don't use it and its features enough to warrant it and i make drinks on it once every few days but when i do i make about 5 or 6 just together more use out of it so i don't feel guilty for not using it enough.

Long story short just ask yourself if its something you really need or if its just something you really want but thats just my 2 cents.

eric

I definitely get the sports-car analogy. I feel like what I'm looking for is just... any car that gets good gas mileage (temperature stability) and has a stick shift (flow control). And I want a moonroof (any steam whatsoever), but the "cars" that meet my first two requirements are mostly either T-tops where opening the entire roof is an absolute chore (the Classika) or sporty convertibles (the Bianca). I understand how everything comes together to make things this way... it's just kind of a pain.

#18: Post by **BaristaBoy E61** » July 2nd, 2022, 11:52 am

No one can promise 'no regrets'.

Look at it as a journey.

Enjoy the ride! (... and the coffee)

#19: Post by **luvmy40** » July 3rd, 2022, 7:44 am

gingerjess wrote:Huh! What I had read sounded much more in-depth than that; I may need to take a look again. And it is true that even without any mods, the BDB's pre-infusion is at least as capable as the similarly-priced Elizabeth.

The easy, water knob modification does not control the flow in exactly the same, way as the full "Slayer Mod". What it does is open the window of operation when using the stock set up to shunt excess flow to the hot water spigot for flow control. OTB, the BDB has "some" inherent flow control capability before the water valve knob actuates the micro switch to shunt the brew water to the spigot instead of the group head. How much seems to be random, probably depending on who installed the water valve knob. By repositioning the outer knob, you get as much control as you would ever need and still have use of the spigot if you open the valve all the way. The excess water debit can either be dumped in the drain pan, or collected and returned to the reservoir.

#20: Post by **Brewzologist** » July 3rd, 2022, 9:52 am

BaristaBoy E61 wrote:No one can promise 'no regrets'.

Look at it as a journey.

Enjoy the ride! (... and the coffee)

^^^^^^ This! For me, trying to find an end game machine is a fool's errand. I went from low-end to high-end. Now back to pulling turbo shots with light roasts on a manual lever. Who knows what's next. Fortunately resale of espresso gear is pretty good. I look at any depreciation hits I've taken as learning and enjoyment of the hobby. Still way cheaper than say golf!