pcrussell50 wrote:Food for your thought: Build quality. What is that? Seems to mean different things to different people. Many fall into the trap of defining it by exterior wrappers, while even the most plastic of machines still have metal boilers, metal groups, metal pumps, metal solenoids, metal portafilters, same stuff as "premium machines", etc... And in the case of the BDB the boilers are stainless steel, and the portafilters are solid stainless, (not plated brass), the pump is the same Italian Ulka pump you get in prosumer vibe machines, and the solenoid is also Italian, Olab. There is a fun thread on defining "build quality" here on HB in the knock box section, but one of the best definitions goes like this: "A machine of superior build quality does what I expect it to do, fails like I expect it to fail, and fixes like I expect it to fix."

In eight and half years of BDB I've: replaced five o-rings, (one minute job per o-ring), replaced one leaky steam valve (before I knew they were actually re usable and not disposable), re sealed another one, and had one single problem that I wasn't a routine DIY maintenance item. One. In eight and a half years. And they sent me a brand new machine for it. And the only difference between me and a dissatisfied BDB owners is that I replaced the o-rings before any damage could occur. Oh, and I use good water.

One minute o-ring job:
video

Do you use good water?
This is what to expect from good water

I can understand being bored and wanting to try something else. Even after eight years, I'm spring loaded to move on, when the elusive thing breaks that can't be fixed easily and economically. But there just never seems to be a reason. In the words of another user with a GS/3, "It fails like I expect it to fail, and fixes like I expect it to fix". And as long as it does that, moving on to something else will always be a back burner priority for me. A complicating factor is that the very small number of machines that can flow profile like it, fail predictably, and repair predictably, like the BDB, creates an extremely small field of candidates.

-Peter

Peter I admire your passion for the BDB
But to say it can perform as well as other more expensive machines is a bit misleading
Quote from the review here at home-barista "The BDB takes 25-30 seconds to steam 4 ounces of milk" that is very slow compared to better machines. So if big milk drinks are their thing then this MIGHT not be the machine for them.
How about multiple drinks? With the size of BDB steam and brew boilers smaller than more capacity machines people would have to take into account that more then 2 milk drinks might not be a pleasant experience.
And can the smaller brew boiler temperature remain stable after 2 drinks?

If I am out of line please let me know
I just think people need all the facts when making a purchase


Thanks

Randy

No argument. I was talking about espresso, thermal stability, and control over extraction parameters. While it makes masterful, dry micro foam, for cortados and flat whites, it's not fast and not suited to large tankards of milk.

Re my "passion" for the BDB: I'm (educated as) an engineer. I don't have passion for much, except taste in the cup and uptime. The BDB is a tool that, (in the words of another): "Meets my high expectations in the cup, fails in simple and predictable ways, and fixes in simple and predictable ways." So it's not a question of passion. It's simple pragmatism. I will say that I have an admitted gap in aesthetic things. My eye just doesn't see things like that as well as more talented people. And I don't begrudge people who do.

-Peter

Thank you for clearing this up
Much appreciated


Randy

Danny30 wrote:Hello everyone,

I am having a bad case of upgraditis but not sure what to do with it...

I tried a lever machine (Londinium R) and it is not for me. I am not interested in flow or pressure profiling. I have some weird under cabinet moldings which limit the machine height to 15 5/16 inches or 38.89 cm.

Since I have a dual boiler machine at the moment, going back to a HX and cooling flushes would seem backward to me. However, the only dual boilers machines I found short enough are the Rocket R58 and the LMLM...

Grinder wise we tried single dosing (Niche Zero) and my girlfriend and I don't like it. I don't see myself going back to time base dosing, so I will probably wait for the next generation of gravimetric grinders (Mahlkonig E65s GBW maybe???).

Budget wise I could go all the way up to LMLM territory...

So in summary:

- 2-4 shots a day
- 1-2 lattes on the weekends
- Occasional lungos
- Medium-dark roasts
- Easy temperature stability
- Height clearance of 15 5/16 inches (or 38.89 cm)
- Could stretch budget to LMLM territory

IMHO the setup for you might be the La Marzocco GS3 AV (14-inches high) & Mahlkonig E65S.

If my machine ever let me down, I would get a GS/3 (either AV or MP would do)*, and retro fit it with the needle valve I'm using on my current machine. This is a simple mod that has already been done on various GS/3's here and there, including those of three of my friends. And for a grinder, I would keep the Monolith FlatSSP that I already have, (nothing against Mahlkoenigs, I'm just satisfied with my Kafatek).

*Or a Slayer. Though I would still insist on adding the "on the fly" needle valve I already have on my machine, and would add to a GS/3. The difference between GS/3 and Slayer (for my flow control uses) is that the mod has already been sussed out and done on GS/3. Not yet on Slayer, but hopefully soon.

-Peter

BaristaBoy E61 wrote:IMHO the setup for you might be the La Marzocco GS3 AV (14-inches high) & Mahlkonig E65S.

pcrussell50 wrote:If my machine ever let me down, I would get a GS/3 (either AV or MP would do)*, and retro fit it with the needle valve I'm using on my current machine. This is a simple mod that has already been done on various GS/3's here and there, including those of three of my friends. And for a grinder, I would keep the Monolith FlatSSP that I already have, (nothing against Mahlkoenigs, I'm just satisfied with my Kafatek).

*Or a Slayer. Though I would still insist on adding the "on the fly" needle valve I already have on my machine, and would add to a GS/3. The difference between GS/3 and Slayer (for my flow control uses) is that the mod has already been sussed out and done on GS/3. Not yet on Slayer, but hopefully soon.

-Peter

You guys confirmed my decision... now to search on that mod for the GS3...

But now I am questioning the grinder... keep my conical or get a flat (KafaTek or Ceado E37SD) grinder...??

Not meant to derail thread.... I will search on the comparison for those grinders. Back to normal programming...

wachuko wrote:You guys confirmed my decision... now to search on that mod for the GS3...

It's here on HB. And the bloke who did it is a mate of mine. It's been within the past few months. Give the thread a good read.

-Peter

This thread?

Simple Profiling on a La Marzocco GS/3 AV

When I recently sent in my BDB for free service while 23 months into 2 year warranty (for the well-documented leaky steam valve), I used the old Expobar Leva II Dual Boiler with PID I had on loan (identical to Brewtus but without steam boiler cutoff switch). I was immediately struck with how much I REALLY like the look of the classic E61 design - it was literally the shiny new thing on my counter. I put it on a Wi-Fi timer and kept it on from 6:00am to 6:00pm. When my brand new BDB arrived recently it remained in the box for a few weeks as I continued using the Expobar, still under the spell of its aesthetic appeal - plus it made great shots. Then out of the blue the friend needed his machine back after a year. I was actually sad to see it go. Now that I'm back with the BDB for several days, here are my thoughts:

What I WON'T miss on the gleaming, oh-so-sexy classic dual boiler PID'd E61 machine:

1. Having a shot cutoff and wasted because the water res got too low.
2. Speaking of water, having to remove the cup-laden warming tray to refill. Assuming you're not plumbed in, the BDB's front-fill ability is awesome and you will surely miss it!
3. Not having the water level indicator; had to frequently lift the tray to check for fear of losing more shots. BDB has a lighted level-indicator, plus it's not possible for a shot to get cut off due to low water level - the electronics won't allow it to happen.
4. Having a shot ruined because the pump diverted water mid-shot to fill the steam boiler (BDB has a dedicated pump for this; apparently this is a rarity - even on high-end machines).
5. Not having a built-in shot timer (probably not such a big deal as most high-end PID machines now have shot timers).
6. 40 minute warm up time vs 8 minutes for BDB (while PID would show 200º after 25 minutes, it was nowhere near ready, as group was only 150º). This necessitated leaving the machine on all day so I could have a walk up shot. If the BDB is idling in standby mode, it's ready in 2 minutes.
7. Even without moving the pump-cutoff switch for the water-spigot valve out of the way, the BDB has the ability to reduce pressure during a shot in case it's running too fast (just like the mighty La Marzocco GS/3 MP, by diverting water to the drip tray). Even a non-tinkerer would appreciate this stock feature - if for nothing else the sake of saving a shot that was ground too course.
8. Not having the auto set-and-forget 370 second backflush cleaning program of the BDB.
9. The microfoam is clearly superior on the BDB despite the power being comparatively anemic. However, I only steam 4 oz at a time and I'm often done before the shot finishes so this has never been an issue. I make drinks one at a time and the steam was never the bottleneck!
10. The BDB pressure gauge reads actual group pressure (very recent E61 machines with flow control or FC kits do this as well).

I purposefully left out the BDB's awesome stock preinfusion capabilities, let alone the possibility of doing the simple "Slayer mod" - as many people won't care about these. But that fact is these possibilities exist.

While I secretly lust for a Lelit Bianca or ECM Synchronika with flow control, the BDB is here to stay!

At least for now.

wachuko wrote:This thread?

Simple Profiling on a La Marzocco GS/3 AV

Corrrecto! That's the very one

-Peter