Upgrade for a Cafelat Robot

#1: Post by **HazyOmega** » April 6th, 2022, 6:32 pm

Hello,
I'm looking to upgrade my espresso machine from a Cafelat Robot because I'm tired of thermal management and having the manual variance between shots. My wife loves the Rao Allongé and the Robot is really limited for this type of drink. So that means dual boiler machine.

Right now, there's two machines on my radar: Bellezza Bellona or Lelit Bianca. The Lelit Elizabeth or Rancilio Pro X could be alternative but they are middle of the road options.
The main reason for the Bellona is the price $1500 CAD. The launch price is simply unbeatable for a dual boiler.
I actually like the external reservoir (easy refill). The Bianca is $3900 CAD. The Elizabeth and Silvia Pro X are $2400 CAD but on paper they don't really bring a lot more than the Bellona. The BDB is 2400 CAD and reliability seems to be lacking.

Most drink I do are medium/ light roast espresso. 30% are turned into latte. Typically, I do 2x shot in a row.

So any recommendations / comment?

#2: Post by **Jeff** » April 6th, 2022, 7:49 pm

There are no "too good to be true" deals out there. I suspect that the Bellona is a 1,500 CAD machine.

The marketing for the Bellezza seems either a bit overstated, a bit over-the-top SEO name dropping, or both.

A hybrid brewing unit consisting of the well-known Faema E61 and a matching boiler. Bellezza engineers benefitted from 40 years' experience in the development of espresso machines, such as Brasilia, Elektra, Wega, or Rancilio.

Their FAQ at https://espresso-bellezza.de/en/faq seems weak, at best.

That they aren't stating clearly where the machines are made seems even more dodgy than ECM talking about "German engineering" yet their home machines seem to be made in Italy. I'll admit that BMW and other "German" auto companies play the same game.

At least one individual believes that one Bellaza machine is not Italian-made. Decision making: Lelit Elizabeth vs Bellezza Chiara

April 6th, 2022, 8:32 pm

Jeff wrote:There are no "too good to be true" deals out there. I suspect that the Bellona is a 1,500 CAD machine.

Yeah.... You get what you pay for.

Jeff wrote: Their FAQ at https://espresso-bellezza.de/en/faq seems weak, at best.

Didn't think of going on their website. The FAQ is not even in English on their English website. I looked at the "find a dealer" and there is one in Canada and one in USA. And it's not the big one (Prima, SCG, WLL, etc).

I think it's safer to skip this manufacturer for now.
Thanks for your input.
I guess I'll look a bit more closely to the Lelit Elizabeth.

#4: Post by **gobucks** » April 6th, 2022, 10:08 pm

Since your tastes lean towards medium/light roasts, I'm not sure I'd go with the Silvia - it has preinfusion, but it's only passive (i.e. run the pump, turn it off, and bloom), whereas the Bianca and Elizabeth both have pressure preinfusion. I can confirm that the Elizabeth is more than capable of pulling great medium roast shots. I haven't done a ton of super light roast stuff, but between the temp control and pressure preinfusion, I'd think you could get at least decent light roast shots. That being said, Bianca adds flow control, which certainly gives you a lot more flexibility on light roasts, and the V2 is currently on clearance, at least in the US, so it's a great deal. If you find yourself applying variable pressure on your shots with the Robot, then I think you'd probably appreciate the flow control on the Bianca. Both machines (Elizabeth and Bianca) are very well regarded, and represent great value at their respective prices.

And yeah, I'm not familiar with the Belezza, but the description seems pretty vague, which raises alarms for me. Also it says the steam boiler is a thermoblock, rather than a true boiler.

#5: Post by **palica** » April 8th, 2022, 12:20 am

gobucks wrote:And yeah, I'm not familiar with the Belezza, but the description seems pretty vague, which raises alarms for me. Also it says the steam boiler is a thermoblock, rather than a true boiler.

Just curious: why a Thermoblock could be a disadvantage for steam, over a boiler? It is much faster, gives unlimited powerful steam and I can not see any advantage for a boiler other a thermoblock

Actually, I have chosen an espresso machine WITH a Thermoblock (Ascaso Dream PID) for all the advantages it does have to me, without sacrifying temp stability. I can understand that some people are reluctant to choose a Thermoblock for infusion, since so many cheap machines use those, but actually, a well designed TB does not really have disadvantages. So when it is for steam...

#6: Post by **baldheadracing** » April 8th, 2022, 1:54 am

The Bellona is made in China. I don't know about Bellezza's other models. The Bellona has a 0.5l brew boiler and a 1l steam boiler. No thermoblock AFAIK. I realize that it looks like an Ascaso thermoblock machine, but I don't think that there is any relationship. (Why a company would copy Ascaso's box design does make me wonder ...)

YouTuber (and fellow Ottawan) Kyle Rowsell is currently testing a Bellona supplied by idrinkcoffee, so we should see a reasonably honest and polite YouTube-level review soon.

As for being a deal, both idrinkcoffee in the GTA and coffeeaddicts in Alberta are offering the machine at $1500CAD ($1200USD). OP, I don't know who in Montreal is selling the machine, but someone will be selling it given the many espresso machine stores that are in Montreal and the way espresso machine distribution is done in Canada. (idrinkcoffee is the Canadian wholesaler.) Myself, I'd be more comfortable taking a risk on a new unknown unproven machine if I purchased it from a shop local to me.

(FYI for those not in Canada - there are a lot of expat Italians in Canada. The major cities in Canada all have multiple brick & mortar espresso machine stores - the biggest chain (yes, a chain of espresso machine stores) in Toronto even has their main store in an old Ford dealership. Prices in stores are generally better than you can get online because you can haggle and get stuff thrown in, etc.)

#7: Post by **gobucks** » April 8th, 2022, 2:16 am

palica wrote:Just curious: why a Thermoblock could be a disadvantage for steam, over a boiler? It is much faster, gives unlimited powerful steam and I can not see any advantage for a boiler other a thermoblock
Actually, I have chosen an espresso machine WITH a Thermoblock (Ascaso Dream PID) for all the advantages it does have to me, without sacrifying temp stability. I can understand that some people are reluctant to choose a Thermoblock for infusion, since so many cheap machines use those, but actually, a well designed TB does not really have disadvantages. So when it is for steam...

The big thing I'd worry about is durability. The narrow passageways of a thermoblock would seem quite a bit more susceptible to scaling, since they have much lower volume to surface area ratio than a boiler. They also seem to mostly appear on lower end machines, often with disappointing results. I was considering a Quick Mill Silvano for awhile, but after watching a video showing steam pressure, it really turned me off of that option. I have never used a thermoblock machine personally, and it is possible that higher end version don't have some of the shortcomings of cheaper models, but use of what is typically a lower end part in a midrange machine does worry me. Also, do you know what it means for a thermoblock to be 1L? I was under the impression that the water followed a winding path through the thermoblock, and when it exited the other end, it was heated to temp. Does it mean that the volume of the path inside the thermoblock holds 1L of water? Or is there a 1L reservoir for holding water after it has been heated?

#8: Post by **palica** » April 8th, 2022, 7:39 am

gobucks wrote:The big thing I'd worry about is durability. The narrow passageways of a thermoblock would seem quite a bit more susceptible to scaling, since they have much lower volume to surface area ratio than a boiler. They also seem to mostly appear on lower end machines, often with disappointing results. I was considering a Quick Mill Silvano for awhile, but after watching a video showing steam pressure, it really turned me off of that option. I have never used a thermoblock machine personally, and it is possible that higher end version don't have some of the shortcomings of cheaper models, but use of what is typically a lower end part in a midrange machine does worry me.

Got you. On the Ascaso, the TB does have stainless tubing inside so very limited corrosion, and a 5 year warranty so I guess it is possible to make it correctly. Sorry for the off topic.

April 9th, 2022, 1:15 pm

baldheadracing wrote: YouTuber (and fellow Ottawan) Kyle Rowsell is currently testing a Bellona supplied by idrinkcoffee, so we should see a reasonably honest and polite YouTube-level review soon.

I'll wait for his review for sure before deciding between a Lelit or Bellona.

The thing I really don't like about the machine is the OPV overflow is routed to the drain pan. So a lot of wasted water. The good side is it's all plastic tubing so it's easy to mod to correct this inconvenience. But modding a new machine will void the warranty.

The more I research the more I'm leaning towards the Lelit Elizabeth or Bianca. I simply don't known how much I'll miss the pressure/ flow profiling with the Elizabeth.
The Canadian importer for Lelit (Édika) is as close to me as any other Lelit distributer. I might just go there to get the best price or latest version.

#10: Post by **baldheadracing** » April 9th, 2022, 3:33 pm

FWIW, the (annual) Breville Canada Spring Sale just started. A Breville Dual Boiler on sale at $1900CAD ($1500USD) is what I would choose over the Bellezza or Elizabeth or Silvia Pro if I was forced to buy a new pump machine (over a lever or a used machine).

About the OPV - I would argue that there shouldn't be much overflow volume at 'normal' grind and OPV settings. (I will leave aside what is 'normal.') If you are planning on long pre-infusions, etc., then that's what a variable flow/pressure control machine/mod is for.

As an aside, even though the Breville sale is on until May 12, the Dual Boilers have always sold out well before a sale ends.