Ahh feels nice to be reading all this useful info I've been missing while on hiatus. good to be reading and seeing its all still just as alive and vibrant. I've seen a few threads re: which machine to get/upgrade to and they have some of the same questions but for fear of hijacking and sidelining them though I'd raise my questions here.

I currently have a BES920XL and a Breville Smart Grinder Pro and being ocd myself I found it rather fun to use the OCD III which at the very least helps create the best looking pucks (unfortunately not sure it helps make up for a subpar grinder at this point). I have been using it for about 3 or so years now and am wondering about upgrading. Over the time have realized what a lot of you already know, the quality of machine and grinder is definitely worth the money if that's what one enjoys. In any case I'm thinking about doing some work in the house and getting a plumb capable one for a machine. For the grinder definitely want something fast, quiet, accurate and something with consistent fluffy output. For machine I'm debating between something in the ECM family or the Rocket family. I just like the way they look and the reviews of quality. Not sure which way to go German or Italian but thats one question. I do like some tech stuff so both for the ECM and Rocket I'd like the tech capable ones.

any suggestions on machines of personal experiences and just some things maybe I'm not considering? I THINK the budget would need to be around 4.5k. I'd also be interested in selling my current setup and not sure where/how to do that most effectively. all thoughts welcome.

AFAIK, both ECM and Rocket are Italian-made machines at this time. Here's one reference https://www.seattlecoffeegear.com/blog/ ... nufacture/

To help others with making suggestions, what roast levels do you presently use for espresso and do you think you'd be using medium or lighter beans for espresso in the future? What qualities do you value in your espresso?

Based on my personal experience with an Italian-made machine from a well-respected manufacturer and their electrical/electronic systems, as well as reading here of a what seem to be relatively poor choices with thermal or water-ingress design leading to failures, I would be very hesitant with a consumer-level, European machine that had custom touch screens, microcontrollers, or the like. As the electronics generally come from a handful of OEMs for all the leading Italian makes, I don't think there is a significant difference between them. At least when they fail, SSRs are under $100 and conventional "temperature and fill" Gicar controllers are generally under $200. If I were purchasing a consumer machine from any of the well-known European makes, I'd stick with a "classic" design without sophisticated electronics. (Leading European commercial machines, such as La Marzocco, VA, ..., are a very different product with different considerations in their design and execution.)

Well, unless the design aesthetics are a high priority for you, the BDB will out perform anything less than the Decent DE1 unless you want to spend the whole $4500 on the machine.

There are a whole bunch of Kool Kids running the DE1 and a Niche Zero.

Personally, I'd keep the BDB and spend the money on a high end big flat burr monolith type grinder and a Niche Zero. That should set you up to handle almost anything espresso wise.

I like my DE1 but can see people liking the look and feel of the machines you mentioned. You want to like looking at it if you're spending lots of money! The DE1's versatility won me over.

I actually chose this time around to NOT plumb in, even though I had on my previous machine. The two main factors were concern over leaks but even more, the ability to formulate my water in ways you just can't do plumbed in. I never have to descale! And it's easy and the machines can be cheaper without. Just to think about. Double check how good your water is first.

Happy researching! That's part of the fun!

For quality of espresso, you need a DE1 and a Niche.. That fits within your budget.. for more.. look at Mono Flat or equiv grinders. I think you'll get a good support experience with Decent as well.

luvmy40 wrote:Well, unless the design aesthetics are a high priority for you, the BDB will out perform anything less than the Decent DE1 unless you want to spend the whole $4500 on the machine.

I don't think anything outperforms the Decent line at any price. Aesthetics mean less to some than others.

Jeff wrote:AFAIK, both ECM and Rocket are Italian-made machines at this time. Here's one reference https://www.seattlecoffeegear.com/blog/ ... nufacture/

To help others with making suggestions, what roast levels do you presently use for espresso and do you think you'd be using medium or lighter beans for espresso in the future? What qualities do you value in your espresso?

Based on my personal experience with an Italian-made machine from a well-respected manufacturer and their electrical/electronic systems, as well as reading here of a what seem to be relatively poor choices with thermal or water-ingress design leading to failures, I would be very hesitant with a consumer-level, European machine that had custom touch screens, microcontrollers, or the like. As the electronics generally come from a handful of OEMs for all the leading Italian makes, I don't think there is a significant difference between them. At least when they fail, SSRs are under $100 and conventional "temperature and fill" Gicar controllers are generally under $200. If I were purchasing a consumer machine from any of the well-known European makes, I'd stick with a "classic" design without sophisticated electronics. (Leading European commercial machines, such as La Marzocco, VA, ..., are a very different product with different considerations in their design and execution.)

So I guess my misunderstanding was that ECM is German but that seems to have changed to now made in Italy. Regardless, I prefer medium beans for a more round flavor. Not a fan of the lighter stuff as I'm a bit more in tune with acidity and really don't enjoy that. Do I sometimes try light roasts sure but definitely not my go to. Sometimes even tend to the more robust of something like Malabar Gold.

As far as electronics, what I like in something like the ECM or the Rocket is the sleek clean lines with little exposed screens an interaction, yet the ability to see the shot counter and the additional hook up of either a phone or device to configure (I'm sure it's nicer in reviews than when it's on the counter).

I am very pleased but maybe a little surprised at the positive feedback of the BDB, it's a nice unit but being now on my probably 3rd brand new replacement per warranty makes me uncomfortable in the long run. Seems like the OPV and other internals are just not up to par for the price and after sending previous units in for service and having them come back with the same issue if not worse I'm just worried down the road I'll end up in this predicament. Don't get me wrong I DON'T want to spend 4.5k. The DE1 seems like a bit too techie to look at, though it is small and is very I'm sure versatile I seem to be drawn to one of the more traditional/classic units. As for grinder I've not even considered the Niche (haven't really heard of it). This gives me something to consider and maybe even reconsider if worth it.

Would everyone agree that maybe before making huge jumps and changes for the total setup that it would be wise to first upgrade grinder and see where that gets me?

Unquestionably, a better grinder will give you better espresso.. Likely you won't get better espresso from any ECM than you get from the BDB.. Look at a Niche Zero for conical.. maybe an option O, or monolith for flat.. I think the Niche is the best at its price point and you'd notice a significant improvement.

OK31 wrote:
...I am very please but maybe a little surprised at the positive feedback of the BDB, it's a nice unit but being now on my probably 3rd brand new replacement per warranty makes me uncomfortable in the long run. Seems like the OPV and other internals are just not up to par for the price and after sending previous units in for service and having them come back with the same issue if not worse I'm just worried down the road I'll end up in this predicament. Don't get me wrong I DON'T want to spend 4.5k. The DE1 seems like a bit too techie to look at, though it is small and is very I'm sure versatile I seem to be drawn to one of the more traditional/classic units. As for grinder I've not even considered the Niche (haven't really heard of it). This gives me something to consider and maybe even reconsider if worth it.

Would everyone agree that maybe before making huge jumps and changes for the total setup that it would be wise to first upgrade grinder and see where that gets me?

What issues have you had with the BDB?
Have you read through the following threads?
Breville Dual Boiler, five+ years on
Breville Dual Boiler Mods and Maintenance

I ran my BDB with the newest version of the Smart Grinder Pro for a few months before I got the Niche Zero and while I had to set the lower burr carrier to the finest grind setting, I got pretty good results with the medium to dark roasts I gravitate towards. I too, like to try new things and do, on occasion roast a light SO for variety. That is the main reason I got the Niche Zero and it was one of the best decisions I have made in a long time. The BDB was also one of those moments.

OK31 wrote:I am very pleased but maybe a little surprised at the positive feedback of the BDB, it's a nice unit but being now on my probably 3rd brand new replacement per warranty makes me uncomfortable in the long run. Seems like the OPV and other internals are just not up to par for the price

So you've had 3 brand new replacements? That must have been in a relatively short period of time, as the original warranty is 2 years, and after that it's 6 months per replacement machine. What were the issues? Since you mentioned the OPV, if yours failed this would be first-ever documented BDB OPV failure I'm aware of.

As far as I can tell, the most common issues are steam boiler o-rings eventually needing replacement, and the steam valve seals needing to be flipped and reseated. Both of these are relatively easy repairs and are well documented in a dedicated BDB thread.