Torn between completely different espresso machines - Page 3

October 12th, 2022, 1:48 pm

borisp wrote:... On the bright side, my wife liked the look and the mechanics of the lever machine. We decided to stretch our budget significantly and wait for Black Friday deals and eye a potential 'final-no-need-to-upgrade-ever' machine.

I'm entertaining myself with a possible purchase of Profitec 800/ Strega/ Londinium Victus (when it comes out..although.. I don't know whether it should be in the same league as Prof800/strega??).

I'm trying to read as much as I can about Strega and Profitec 800 machines, it's not 100% certain yet that we'll be able to allocate sufficient budget for those machines, but we'll see, until then I'd like to inform myself as best as I can. I don't quite understand what benefits the Strega's pump bring versus Profitec 800's dripper design... Also, should read about Quickmill Achille or Rapida, they come a bit cheaper than Profitec800...

Too bad about the Ponte Vecchio. You may still want to keep such a machine in mind, as there are significant differences between domestic and commercial lever groups.

First, keep in mind that a domestic lever machine like the Ponte Vecchio or the Vectis is much smaller than a machine using a commercial lever group. You have to keep in mind clearance to cupboards, being able to open cupboard doors, etc.

Next, most commercial lever groups need an hour to (passively) warm up. Thus, the use case for many is to turn on the machine in the morning and leave the machine on all day long, trading a higher power bill for less maintenance and walk-up-and-pull convenience. There are also a few people who work at home and leave the machines on 24/7.

Third, lever machines were designed for traditional Italian espresso roasts, not light roasts. Some machines are/can be configured differently; some are more flexible than others; in some the operator can use the machine differently. However, I haven't kept up with the market so I can't help you there.

#22: Post by **mrgnomer** » October 12th, 2022, 6:47 pm

Bezzera Strega uses a group heater on a thermostat. Ready to go in about 20min. I use a timer to turn it on in the morning and then to turn it off later if I don't manually turn it off when I'm done. The Top is pour over and plumb in. With plump in there's line pressure infusion and you don't have to worry about boiler refill or steam pressure. Multiple shots are only delayed by the lever's lack of a backflush valve.

Small levers like a Cremina or LaPavoni go through false pressure phase if they don't have a false pressure valve. Takes about as long, maybe longer than 20 min to get them to extraction pressure and temp. They are limited by their boiler size, which can only be filled when they're cold. They can lose steaming pressure when boiler water level drops as well. Not the best machines for multiple extractions.

The Lever forum has good info on different groups and spring modifications. So far the Astoria group on the Strega with it's stock double springs is doing better for me than the rotary pump e61 HX I used to have. Very hands on control. Only thing I don't like with the Strega is no backflush pressure release. If you grind too fine or do whatever it takes to choke an extraction you run the risk of the pressure spinning the portafilter off with an explosive sneeze. The portafilter shoots off with a bang. Big mess and possible damage. My dog hates it. If you like to change roasts and grind settings on a single dose basis the risk of the explosive sneeze could hang over you with commercial group spring lever.

October 13th, 2022, 11:20 am

FYI, the Strega has a Bezzera group, not an Astoria. The generic Astoria/CMA group uses a four-output-hole sleeve to enable the group to be rebuilt and has a valve to prevent backflow and, in some versions, restrict output flow. The Bezzera has neither sleeve nor valve, and thus only one output hole. The group top of the two groups look similar, but have differences.

FWIW, my Strega takes 35-45 minutes to passively warm-up, but I have an older model that I don't use much anymore, and I don't know about more recent production.

#24: Post by **mrgnomer** » October 13th, 2022, 8:55 pm

Yes the group casing and portafilter are Bezzera but the rest is CMA standard parts.

Grouphead heaters get temp up pretty quick. After about 20min the group is hot, the HX sputters and the steam is pretty good. Not bad for a commercial grouphead.

October 18th, 2022, 3:51 am

I attempted to revisit the used PVL, asked if he has sent the machine for service to replace the gasket and whatever else may require replacement/attention.

I think he's upset with my reluctance to buy his machine when its needing a small repair but a repair nonetheless. In any case, it's not relevant anymore.

To our topic.

Not to dismiss the PVL, because it's almost 1/2 the price of the Profitec 800.
Main concerns: upgraditis and low vol shots.

With 2G I guess workflow would be pull 1st lever, PI, see drops release and pull 2nd lever. Fellini 1st, Fellini 2nd, steam milk, remove cups when blonding starts.

With Profitec: use double spouted PF, pull the lever, PI, steam milk - remove the cup before blonding. Maybe the steaming can finish before blonding even occurs hehe?

I'm afraid it's a QOL concern that may eventually promote upgraditis

The QM Rapida is somewhat unknown territory in terms of actual user experience. It's available in an Italian shop for significantly less money, but the near absolute absence of reviews and discussions online frightens me.

I have read mostly good things about the Pro 800, and I don't mind the design being "boring" to some. I find it quite impressive tbh. The warmup time is indeed very long and will definitely require a smart plug which is additional costs, but OTOH, the 800 comes with nice knobs, baskets and a double/single/bottomless PF options which also cost money.

About the Strega. There seem to be a dedicated community around modding the machine to bring it to a powerful state. While I don't mind modding a machine in the future to improve it, I don't want it be a MUST.

The potential explosive PF you described with the Strega, it is not possible with Profitec 800, if not, why so? Is there a pressure release in the group?

Just in case I did not mention this,
I intend to use traditional dark roasts mostly. I will want to experiment with med/light because I have never tasted those, it evokes my curiosity - my wife my not like it all though, she likes the coffee like it is in our local cafe.

#26: Post by **mrgnomer** » October 18th, 2022, 6:47 am

I don't know if the Protec 800 has any specific part to prevent an explosive portafilter unlocking. I think the adjustment and function of the OPV does that. The Strega might be prone to it because you can use the pump to fill the grouphead and build 11bar pressure. The Profitec 800 draws at boiler pressure, which isn't as high, and the grouphead doesn't fully fill as far as I'm aware. It may not be as prone to unlocking and offer more forgiveness if it does.

With the Strega as well, when you run the pump with the lever down on a pull to the point where extraction starts happening and you pull the lever up the piston is so full there's no relieving extraction pressure for a bit. If the portafilter starts twisting off, pulling the lever down runs the risk of engaging the pump which makes things worse. The Profitec 800 from what I imagine has more lever travel room you can pull down on to relieve a choked shot.

The Strega machine is an object of modification I think because it attracts owners who like to modify machines. I'm reading where as a hybrid machine it's already modified and further modifications don't improve it significantly. Bezzera apparently did a lot of design testing to come up with the Strega.

Both machines AFAIK are solid. It depends on your preference. Do you prefer classic dip tube boiler lever extraction or do you like the idea of a fusion between an HX pump and lever. If you're coming from an e61 HX and like the extractions the Strega offers similar parameters but more control. Don't know about the Profitec 800 but the Strega does well with light roasts.

October 18th, 2022, 12:45 pm

borisp wrote:... The QM Rapida is somewhat unknown territory in terms of actual user experience. It's available in an Italian shop for significantly less money, but the near absolute absence of reviews and discussions online frightens me.

I think the absence can be explained by the markets that the machine is (not) sold in. AFAIK, the Rapida has not been sold in the USA.

borisp wrote:... I have read mostly good things about the Pro 800, and I don't mind the design being "boring" to some. I find it quite impressive tbh. The warmup time is indeed very long and will definitely require a smart plug which is additional costs, but OTOH, the 800 comes with nice knobs, baskets and a double/single/bottomless PF options which also cost money.

It is all in how one defines "warm-up time." I define it as the point where the brew temperature profile is identical to the brew temperature profile one would have gotten with the machine at steady state. That is a different definition from Kirk's. One method is not better or worse than another, but to compare between machines: Using my definition, a Pro 800 takes 50-60 minutes; a Strega takes 35-45 minutes.

borisp wrote:About the Strega. There seem to be a dedicated community around modding the machine to bring it to a powerful state. While I don't mind modding a machine in the future to improve it, I don't want it be a MUST.

Modding isn't a must. Unlike the Pro 800's boiler-mounted dipper configuration, the Strega's cold-fed HX and pump allow the user more flexibility in changing some extraction parameters when making a shot; in particular, pre-infusion pressure profile (which affects brew pressure profile) and brew temperature profile. You don't have to take advantage of that flexibility, but if you do, then there are modifications to enable you to more consistently take advantage of that flexibility, for example, a pre-infusion pressure gauge. More recently-designed machines like the ACS Versuvius Evo Leva have these modifications/features included.

borisp wrote:The potential explosive PF you described with the Strega, it is not possible with Profitec 800, if not, why so? Is there a pressure release in the group?

Almost every lever group machine has this feature to train users

. Offhand, the Nurri Leva and, I believe, the La Marzocco Leva X, have pressure releases.

borisp wrote:Just in case I did not mention this,
I intend to use traditional dark roasts mostly. I will want to experiment with med/light because I have never tasted those, it evokes my curiosity - my wife my not like it all though, she likes the coffee like it is in our local cafe.

I don't think that you can go wrong with either machine - or a Mara X, for that matter. I personally wouldn't buy any of them today as I've grown accustomed to silent machines that have no pump. (My Strega has plenty of sound deadening and sound reducing mods.)

#28: Post by **boren** » October 18th, 2022, 1:11 pm

Get a Flair 58 and the regular Breville Bambino (not the Plus version). The main pros I see include:

- The Flair is a manual lever machine that supports pressure profiling, produces excellent espresso and does so quickly. No need to wait long for the brew head to heat up. It's also a lot of fun to use, and I say this as someone who upgraded from an Elektra Micro Casa Leva. I much prefer the Flair.
- The Bambino steamer is ready within seconds from turning on the machine.
- Redundancy. If either of these espresso machines develops a fault, just switch to the other machine (though keep a manual frothing wand at hand just in case it's the Bambino that's faulty).
- Small footprint. Both machines are narrow, less than 20 cm wide (each).
- No need to worry about water hardness with the Flair. Possibly not a huge issue with the Bambino if you only turn it on for a short period of time for steaming.
- Low cost. The Bambino can be had for 1100 ILS shipped from Amazon.de (when on sale). The Flair was sold locally for 2000 ILS, though will probably cost a bit more when it's back in stock. The total cost of both machines should be at least 25% less than the MaraX.

I have a somewhat similar setup with a Flair 58 and a Lelit Bianca V3 (yes, not that similar to the Bambino) and I believe you'd enjoy the above kit more than the MaraX or the PVL. I could be wrong.

#29: Post by **peacecup** » October 19th, 2022, 4:41 pm

I use 16g in and get 20-30g out with the PV. That is an excellent ristretto, or the base for a great cappuccino. I make two back to back when I have a guest, and it takes a couple minutes total. There is no real worry about overheating unless you are making multiple shots in a row.

#30: Post by **peacecup** » October 19th, 2022, 4:45 pm

A leaking head gasket is about as small a mechanical problem as one can have with an espresso machine. Either clean it or replace it, 10 minutes and a few bucks done.

The Lusso does not need 40 minutes to warm up. Twenty will suffice if you just pull some water through the group once the machine is up to pressure, and bleed off the false pressure a couple of times. I do this every morning and have done the past 10 years, so about 3650 times...