To E61 or not to E61

#1: Post by **dragulievic** » May 24th, 2021, 6:49 am

Hi,

I've been reading tons of reviews, articles and opinions for a couple of weeks and as you might be very likely familiar with that feeling, the more I know, the more uncertain I am so I'd like to hear you opinion

Currently I own an Eureka Mignon Specialita grinder and a Bialetti Brikka moka pot (yeah, i know). I drink on average 2 double shots daily (the basket of the Brikka 2 accepts ~20g of coffee). Even though for a moka pot it makes pretty good coffee, that's still far from an actual espresso and I'd like to up my game finally. I'd like to keep my budget around ~1000EUR max.

I really love the looks of espresso machines equipped with an E61 group head. These are all very robust machines and they are not only beautiful but are easily serviceable from what I understand and are built to last many years if they are properly taken care of.
Considering my budget, I was looking at machines like the Bezzera Unica PID, Quick Mill Carola, VBM Domobar Inox, Isomac Zaffiro, etc. The Lelit Mara, ECM Classika and the likes are unfortunately already around 1250EUR.
Probably I would not mind if the machine did not have a steam wand like the Carola. Maybe I would occasionally prepare a cappuccino but I've been drinking pure "espressos" for a couple of years now. Also from what I've read, single boiler machines are utterly sufficient if one makes only espressos at home and dual boiler or HX are needed only for steaming.

I've been already looking at used machines here in Europe and they are surprisingly expensive in my opinion. Maybe I was not lucky yet or was looking at the wrong marketplaces. I know that these espresso machines hold their value pretty well on the market as they are very well built. But honestly, if I see a 5-6y old used Bezzera Unica without a PID, zero warranty and potential hidden faults for 750-800EUR, and a brand new one with 2y warranty and a PID for 1050EUR, it's utterly ridiculous, the new one is undoubtedly worth the extra 250EUR.

Apparently I'd like to keep my budget as low as possible but in the long run, it's probably better to invest more and save myself some headaches in the future?

The cheapest E61 machine that I like is the VBM Domobar Inox: https://www.coffeeitalia.co.uk/vbm-domo ... -pack.html however, this machine does not have a PID and probably there are other things that I am not aware of. What do you think about this machine? Is it a good deal or it would be much better to buy the Bezzera Unica PID? Shot consistency is one of my main priorities apparently, the rest is about preparation and the coffee itself, grinder, etc.

Yesterday I even started looking at other cheaper machines without the E61, like the Lelit Glenda PL41PLUST. That machine has a 58mm portafilter, unlike the Anna, which has the odd 57mm, and is equipped with a PID, it basically ticks all the boxes.
I would honestly dare to say that if one has a good grinder, fresh and good quality coffee, good water and a proper technique, the difference between the Glenda's shots and a Unica's shots would be basically minimal or even non existent. But I do not want to open this Pandora's box.

So my main question is, is there a good reason for me to buy the more expensive machine with an E61 group head, if so, is the PID a necessary feature or the Domobar Inox is sufficient? Or is the Lelit Glenda an utterly sufficient machine?

Thanks a lot in advance!

#2: Post by **Randy G.** » May 24th, 2021, 9:53 am

I do have a soft spot in my heart for the E61 group. I had two VBM machines for a total of about 16 or 17 years iirc. but have moved on... WAY on. But the manual E61groups are easy to maintain and make for a somewhat simplier machine.

Anyway, I may be wrong, but I believe that the VBM Inox is like the one that 1st-Line sells as "The Original" in that is is a single boiler, dual use (SBDU) machine. That means that if you like milk drinks then you have to flip a switch, wait for the boiler to heat up to steaming temperature, steam milk, then turn off the steam switch and cool and fill the boiler by bleeding water through the group before brewing again. The next step up is to a "Heat Exchanger" (HX) machine. These are generally better suited for dual use (straight espresso and milk drinks). The Inox, if you are just using it for espresso only, would be a nice machine if the E61 group is what you want. But also be aware that a quality grinder is a must, and as you may have already read on this forum, more important than the espresso machine. And a PID is not necessary in those machines. The Inox, much like most other SBDU does not have an adjustment for brew temperature. But flushing the E61 group (turning on the brew function by lifting the lever for a chosen amount of time before brewing) can effect and 'control' brew temperature.

As far as the other machines, I have no useful knowledge about them, but others here will be able to assist you in comparisons about those.

#3: Post by **Nunas** » May 24th, 2021, 11:05 am

I think Randy about covered it. While it's old technology, it's still current. I have stayed with e61 machines for similar reasons. I only add that if you get an e61 espresso-only, SBDU, or HX, then be sure to add a group head thermometer. You're unlikely to get a double boiler due to the cost and your coffee preference, but if you do, then it isn't necessary. BTW, the type of machine you are looking for 'needs' a PID about as much as a fish needs a bicycle, but if you find a machine you like that has a PID, then it certainly would not be a problem. Eventually, most machines will likely come with PIDs, as they've become less expensive and are arguably more reliable than most pressurestats.

#4: Post by **Espressoman007** » May 26th, 2021, 7:59 am

Think about levers like La Pavoni or similar instead. You might get more for less money. And it could be more fun to play with if you like to play.
And I don't agree that a grinder is more important than a machine. I would say it's equal, but it also depends on what do you want!

Cheers, man!

#5: Post by **walr00s** » May 26th, 2021, 8:42 am

dragulievic wrote: So my main question is, is there a good reason for me to buy the more expensive machine with an E61 group head, if so, is the PID a necessary feature or the Domobar Inox is sufficient? Or is the Lelit Glenda an utterly sufficient machine?

You're getting interesting advice here. It's a bit different than the usual advice you see around here. I agree with them that an e61 is a perfectly acceptable design (even for home use). I love my e61 SBDU, but I rarely entertain people and I don't drink milk drinks. My wife does, so I steam about once a day, after pulling our morning shots. The E61 is old though, and certainly some of the saturated groups out there are better for the home (less warmup time since they're not relying on as much thermal mass). I agree that a grouphead thermometer is necessary for an HX, no clue why they would say so for SBDU, unless you're planning to constantly be steaming (in which case, don't get an SBDU, it will be a pain in the neck).

I don't see you mention what roast level you prefer? A very trendy topic of experimentation in the enthusiast community is flow and pressure profiling. For light roasts, the idea that certain profiles can enhance the flavor is pretty well accepted by the community. If you think you might want to play around with that, an E61 is capable with the installation of a flow control module, which is essentially a needle valve that sits at the top of the mushroom and restricts flow from the boiler into the group based on the setting of a knob. I don't think the Glenda can do anything comparable. Adding a grouphead thermometer precludes effectively using flow control on an e61, as you wouldn't have room for the manometer.

#6: Post by **tcaton** » May 26th, 2021, 9:22 am

Unless something had changed in the metals used in the past 10 years, you should be aware that the brass in an e61 likely contains lead. There is a chrome plating over the brass, but this will likely flake off over time. I have an e61 in the closet that I will never use again, for this reason, after having its water tested.

May 26th, 2021, 10:36 am

So the test came back with a significant amount of lead?

My machine is fairly new and I tested it after running cafiza through it for the first time a couple of months ago. 0 lead, but I suppose that's to be expected with a new machine. Most of the research I did before purchasing seemed to indicate that lead from an espresso machine was very unlikely to leach into the water. Here's a thread that seems to include quality discussion on the topic.
Is it safe to use a portafilter with exposed brass?

#8: Post by **Auctor** » May 26th, 2021, 10:44 am

walr00s wrote: Here's a thread that seems to include quality discussion on the topic.
Is it safe to use a portafilter with exposed brass?

Thanks for this link. I was on the verge of some eyebrow raising until I read this comment:

Is it safe to use a portafilter with exposed brass?

#9: Post by **jgood** » May 26th, 2021, 5:08 pm

I have had a Quickmill Carola for several years and it's a good machine. For the first two years I used a Bellman stovetop steamer (about 100 US dollars) if I wanted to make a cappuccino. Eventually I found I was making more milk drinks than not and got the companion steamer for the Carola, essentially giving me a double boiler machine. The Bellman was fine for steaming - just a little more trouble, and a little slower. And you can't just leave it on all day-- it's a heat up when you need it type of device. There are threads here on the Carola and also on the Bellman.

#10: Post by **baldheadracing** » May 26th, 2021, 5:39 pm

tcaton wrote:Unless something had changed in the metals used in the past 10 years, you should be aware that the brass in an e61 likely contains lead. There is a chrome plating over the brass, but this will likely flake off over time. I have an e61 in the closet that I will never use again, for this reason, after having its water tested.

It has changed. There are regulations in force in the EU since 2013. Along with limits on various heavy metals, the material underneath the plating/coating must now also be food safe.

(There were regulations in the early 2000's, but the big change was in 2013.)