Synesso on a quick220

#1: Post by **shawndo** » April 22nd, 2016, 1:26 am

I am brainstorming the idea of getting a one-group MVP Hydra and put it in my living room with one of these quick220 systems and a flojet/accumulator.
http://www.quick220.com/220_catalog/vol ... rters.html

The main idea is that you connect it to 2 110v outlets on different circuits and it combines the wattage and converts to 220v/20a

Synesso engineering didn't have specific experience with this but said the numbers worked and looked like there shouldn't be a problem.
I saw one reference to a quick220 from a long time ago, so nothing recent.

Can anyone talk me out/in of this crazy idea? (in terms of electricity gotchas)

#2: Post by **ira** » April 22nd, 2016, 4:13 pm

Conceptually it should work fine. You need to make sure you have two non GFI outlets on different phases within a reasonable distance. You might also consider putting a 220V GFI on the box. Not the best idea ever, but it can work. Make sure there are no high current devices on those breakers as then you might blow one side of the circuit and not the other. Real 220 circuits have dual breakers so if one side blows, so does the other side. If the breakers for the outlets you're using are near each other in the box, you might consider replacing them with a dual breaker which makes it a bit less shifty.

But, it's still shifty!

Ira

April 22nd, 2016, 4:26 pm

Call me crazy, but I feel that if you're going to spend $10,000+ on a machine, than converting to 220 to ensure it runs properly and to ensure nothing sketchy happens seems well worth it.

I do feel your pain, tho. I'm looking at numerous 1 and 2 group machines for mixed home/commercial use, and while the Hydra is high on my list, the reliance on 220v is definitely a factor. Especially since the Slayer 1 group runs on 110v ... Makes it hard to resist!

#4: Post by **homeburrero** » April 22nd, 2016, 4:53 pm

ira wrote:But, it's still shifty!

+1

A while back I saw discussion of this on an electrician's forum : ( http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=69037 ) where they were discussing the use of this kludge by espresso cart operators plugging into church carnival and other events. Evidently it's done out there, but not advised by the electrcal professionals, and may be contrary to code.

Here's a snip from a moderator post on that forum:

I think this is a violation of 400.7(B). When an appliance is supplied by a flexible cord, the cord is required to become energized only when plugged into a (count them, "one," as in "singular") receptacle.

As to the hazards, I see two:

First, suppose the two receptacle outlets are from the same panel. Suppose a maintenance worker wants to replace a different receptacle that is powered from one of the two breakers that supply the two receptacles into which the espresso machine is plugged. At the moment, the espresso machine is idle, drawing no current. The maintenance worker turns off the appropriate breaker, checks that power is off, and starts removing the old receptacle. Now the espresso machine is turned on. You will now have a current path from the other breaker, through the machine, back through the other wire to the outlet being repaired, and through the maintenance worker. Not generally considered good.

Now suppose the two receptacles are from different distribution transformers. When the espresso machine is turned on, there will be a complete path for current to flow from one breaker (on one panel) through the machine and to the other breaker (on the other panel). But that complete path must necessarily include the grounding electrode conductors of each of the two transformers, and the grounding electrode system. I would call that "objectionable current." And by the way, the hazard I describe above still exists for this situation as well.

If I were to come across this situation, I would be inclined to look for a way to get it shut down. Yes, I would deny espresso operators a chance to pursue their livelihoods, if by their doing so they pose a threat to someone else's life.

Of course, your receptacles will surely be on the same distribution transformer, so that second hazard would not apply. I suppose you could handle the first one if you were cautious about unplugging the espresso machine any time electrical work in your house is being done.

If it were me, I'd go for having a licensed electrician install a dedicated outlet with a GFCI breaker at the panel. GFCI is an important thing to have on an espresso machine, and you can't easily* do that with that 'quick 220' kludge.

* Edit addition: After thinking about this, I suppose you could put a 20 amp 240V 'inline GFCI' at the espresso machine end, which would be pretty easy. I don't know much about those vs a conventional GFCI breaker.

April 22nd, 2016, 5:40 pm

The hurdle is that I live in a rental so am not going do any permanent modifications.
Its looking like a 220v machine will be out of reach as long as I live in NYC and don't own my residence.

#6: Post by **sweaner** » April 22nd, 2016, 6:12 pm

No 220 for a dryer or oven?

April 22nd, 2016, 6:25 pm

Unfortunately no.
Gas stoves and no washer/dryer.

April 22nd, 2016, 6:31 pm

shawndo wrote:The hurdle is that I live in a rental so am not going do any permanent modifications.
Its looking like a 220v machine will be out of reach as long as I live in NYC and don't own my residence.

Such a bummer. That being said, at least you have that GS/3 and some other amazing 110v options!

#9: Post by **Compass Coffee** » April 22nd, 2016, 8:57 pm

shawndo wrote:The hurdle is that I live in a rental so am not going do any permanent modifications.
Its looking like a 220v machine will be out of reach as long as I live in NYC and don't own my residence.

Personally I'd have no qualms using the Quick 220 converter as long as virtually nothing else was on either 110v circuit being used to combine for 220v.

#10: Post by **boost** » April 22nd, 2016, 11:00 pm

Yeah, it is not the perfect solution but I see that it does have ETL certification on it. I would turn it off when its unused though.
MVP Hydra is rated at 16A max draw so regular 15A socket is pushing it and you absolutely can't have anything else running on it.
However if I'm not mistaken Synesso has setting to turn off one of the steam element (or both) so the steam draw is only 1000W instead of 2000W.