Suggestion on espresso only machines - Page 3

March 5th, 2021, 10:02 am

Nate42 wrote:PID machines are awfully expensive for someone who doesn't care about steam. You might consider the following cheaper options:

The Cafelat robot may not have a PID and is limited in its ability to reach higher temperature. But it scores a lot of points in my mind for being "no fuss" when it comes to temperature management. No thermometers, no PID offsets, no warming or cooling flushes. Just use boiling water, and preheat or don't depending on the coffee. Dead simple.

Alternatively, open kettle machines like the La Peppina or Caravel can have their temperature monitored easily, making it possible for you manually control temperature pretty easily. On my La Peppina I bring the water to a boil, pull some water through it to warm it up, turn it off and stick a thermomenter in the kettle and prep my shot while I wait for the temp to drop a bit. when the temperature is about 5degrees higher than what I want for a shot temp, i go for it. I really wish someone made a modern equivalent to these. I guess the streitman is about the closest it comes but they are well outside the bounds of cheap.

Edit: having owned one for a number of years you would think I could spell La Peppina. But nope.

I already had a Caravel and liked it, when I will have more space in my house for this hobby I want to have something like a Robot or a Pavoni or another manual, but as something different to enjoy sometimes. I'd like to choose something to keep as my daily driver.

March 5th, 2021, 1:34 pm

Sorry for the rookie question, but is a single boiler machine more temperature stable compared to a HX?

#23: Post by **Jeff** » March 5th, 2021, 1:46 pm

Without monitoring the group-head temperature with something like an EricS thermometer and a flushing routine, a dedicated brew boiler will generally provide greater temperature stability than an HX machine will. There's too long of an uncontrolled path between the steam boiler and the group head, along with the rate at which the head loses heat, to be able to control HX brew temperature just by throwing a PID on an HX steam boiler (no matter what the promo videos claim).

#24: Post by **MTN Gert** » March 5th, 2021, 1:49 pm

In my opion.....maybe. it depends on how temperature is managed in the boiler and the entire route through the puck to the cup.

A $700 Rancilio Silvia single boiler will most likely not be near as close to temp stable vs a Simonelli Aurelia HX machine. There are a lot of variables like the thickness of the boiler, boiler material, pump type and flow, exposed plumbing before grouphead, grouphead heft and material choice, grouphead saturated or not, PID control vs a lower quality Pressuresstat.

Just a thought, do you want repeatable vs stable? Most lever machines need a cooling flush and so do many HX machines. I would not call that stable but with experienced hands they can offer very repeatable results.

A Dual boiler machine with a saturated group head like the La Spaziale Vivaldi can be both stable and repeatable. If you want flow control too then you are talking DE1, GS3mp,.Slayer etc.

I have not fallen in love with a E61 flow control machine personally

#25: Post by **jgood** » March 5th, 2021, 2:00 pm

ppaolo2 wrote:Sorry for the rookie question, but is a single boiler machine more temperature stable compared to a HX?

The Carola is 1/2 of a double boiler - so it's temp stable compared to a HX. With a single boiler that also makes steam (like the older Silvia) temp management has to be done to go between "brewing" and steaming. The Carola doesn't require that as it's espresso only.

March 5th, 2021, 2:11 pm

I think the Carola looks fantastic for the price! Super cool

I have not used one so please take my opinion only for what it's worth. The compromises I would ask about

-How stable is a E61 group head without a thermosiphon? I can't imagine a 195° boiler will quickly heat up that bulky group head and probably requires several flushed to get to a semi stable temp to match boiler temp

-is a vibratory pump the desired feel and sound you want out of a machine vs a rotary pump or lever?

-are you sure you want a machine that can never be plumbed in?

If you are okay with those questions/concerns it does look almost tailor made for you OP

#27: Post by **erik82** » March 5th, 2021, 2:15 pm

ppaolo2 wrote:I'm not too attracted to lever machines, I tend to like more classic overdosed basket 18in 36 out for my blend, I'm into the syrupy and chocolaty stuff.
Had La Pavoni, Riviera, Caravel and while they make good coffee I feel they are not to my personal taste.

Same here and with the Strietman you can do 18/36 shots. I also never liked my Pavoni, Cremina etc but the Strietman is in a different league and can easily get the same results as say a LM GS3.

March 6th, 2021, 8:58 am

MTN Gert wrote:In my opion.....maybe. it depends on how temperature is managed in the boiler and the entire route through the puck to the cup.

Just a thought, do you want repeatable vs stable? Most lever machines need a cooling flush and so do many HX machines. I would not call that stable but with experienced hands they can offer very repeatable results.

A Dual boiler machine with a saturated group head like the La Spaziale Vivaldi can be both stable and repeatable. If you want flow control too then you are talking DE1, GS3mp,.Slayer etc.

Maybe I ask for too much but I'd like something that is the most stable and repeatable. I got the hang of my HX and I can pull good shots, but sometime they are 100% good, sometimes 80%, sometimes still good but not that good. I dont like temp surfing and flushing every time trying to get the sweet spot (I have a Coffee Sensor on E61), there are already a lot of variables on the user, I'd like the machine to be consistent to avoid as much as possible dealing with that variable that I feel right now is not always on spot with my HX.

March 6th, 2021, 9:04 am

MTN Gert wrote:I think the Carola looks fantastic for the price! Super cool

I have not used one so please take my opinion only for what it's worth. The compromises I would ask about

-How stable is a E61 group head without a thermosiphon? I can't imagine a 195° boiler will quickly heat up that bulky group head and probably requires several flushed to get to a semi stable temp to match boiler temp

-is a vibratory pump the desired feel and sound you want out of a machine vs a rotary pump or lever?

-are you sure you want a machine that can never be plumbed in?

If you are okay with those questions/concerns it does look almost tailor made for you OP

-I can start the machine early with a smart plug if the grouphead takes longer to heat up, but yeah flushing and temp surfing is what I am looking to avoid because I'd like a machine consistent on that variable.

-The sound of vibe pumps is just bad, but then again I am looking for extraction quality. I can go with rotary if it gives better flow, if not I can bear with the annoying sound of vibratory pumps.

-Right now I can't plumb in the machine, I should move in a couple of years but until then I have to go with tank.

#30: Post by **MTN Gert** » March 6th, 2021, 10:56 am

After re reading the thread I would say I would recommend

-DE1 for stability and repeatability and be OK with the techie experience

-La Spaziale Vivaldi for stability and repeatability but be OK with no flow control

-save up for a high end flow control machine like a GS3mp or slayer

I think the other options will need flushing, temp surfing, lack stability or have some issues to be worked out like the lelit Bianca