My Andreja Premium by Quickmill failed after over 12 and a half years and I decided to replace it with a double boiler, rotary pump e61. I was leaning towards a couple other models but felt all options were in the same class. My wife had some strong opinions on cosmetics, didn't approve of my top choice, and preferred the looks of the Izzo Alex Duetto IV. I've been using it for three months now and have been very happy with it. I replaced the pump and pump air release valve in my Andreja Premium and one of my daughters is enjoying it now.

I'm sure I could have added a number of additional comparable options and researched until my hair hurt but in the end felt I would be happy with any of them and getting something my wife felt fit her kitchen décor better plus the fact she supported the upgrade has worked out great.

Thanks for all of the replies! Feels like magic.

@LittleCoffee: You say "The PID 7 segment display looks nasty". Is "PID 7" a PID model number? I agree it's ugle if you're referring to the rounded corners of this PID.

@coyote-1, @jgood: My rotary pump requirement comes from feeling unwilling to spend over ~$1,500 without the sort of future-proofy inclusion of a plumbed-in option. The luxurious 'pay more now to pay less later' principle. And I imagine less noise would help with concentration on shot pulling variables.

@mrgnomer, @jgood, @coyote-1: HX E61 vs. Double Boiler E61. (Thanks, makes sense. Not new info, just my retention is lacking.)

• What do you mean by (see underlined) "..not to have to flush [dual boilers] to get to the correct temp, and even more so if you're not plumbed in."?

• Do double boilers present a lowered ceiling for shot temperatures, or do they just take longer to get there?

• Would this apply to a double boiler: "utilizing the flow control limits the heat loss" [Manometer. PID. Deck lights. Flow control. ViaVenezia!!]

Anyone disagree? : In addition to temperature stability, a double-boiler facilitates easier shot pulling for family & guests who may be impatient, have motor difficulties, or mechanical phobias. All the more in terms of no-wait & no sequence requirments for milk steaming, yes?

Thinking out of the box - 'Has Anyone tried things like...?
(maybe my searches were faulty but they came up nil):

• creating something for deflecting rising heat inside a machine (eg, away from the PID) ?

• modding a form of water leak or condensation drip routing within the machine?

• creatively managing airflow inside their machine for whatever purpose?

• using external heating to speed machine warm-up? Despite it being maybe irrational in terms of electricity cost, what about blowing heat at the machine, or even putting it on some form of warming tray (both of which could be added to an external wake-up timer)? I know about changing a room's ambient temperature, of course, and draping a warm/hot damp towell on the group.

• Would it put a double boiler machine at risk of overheating to lay a towel over the cup warming tray, to prevent quick drops in internal heat?

I'm not an thermodynamic engineer but I think when you have a dedicated brew boiler set to a high brew temperature it would take a while to drop that temperature for a different extraction by just setting the temperature. If you flushed the boiler with cool water the temp change would happen faster in the boiler and cooler water flushing out of the e61 grouphead would lower its temp faster as well.

But that's what you do with an e61 HX and with an HX, especially a cooler line pressure water plumbed in one, it happens faster.

I think the benefit of a double boiler is if you pull the same roast at the same temperature. The temperature stability is greater than an HX.

As far as rotary pumps go they're vane driven not piston like a vibe. The rotary flows evenly without making pile drive pressure fluctuations in the line. My plumbed in Strega makes my line pressure dance when the vibe kicks in.

Besides being quiet a rotary output pressure can be adjusted at the pump. You don't have to adjust the OPV. With a vibe pump you can't adjust the pressure at the pump but have to do that at the OPV.

Personally I prefer a rotary pump. It's something I'd pay more for and can be a deal breaker depending on the machine. The Strega would be a better machine for me if it had a rotary.

SkyBlip wrote: Thanks for all of the replies! Feels like magic.


1. @coyote-1, @jgood: My rotary pump requirement comes from feeling unwilling to spend over ~$1,500 without the sort of future-proofy inclusion of a plumbed-in option. The luxurious 'pay more now to pay less later' principle. And I imagine less noise would help with concentration on shot pulling variables.

2.

• What do you mean by (see underlined) "..not to have to flush [dual boilers] to get to the correct temp, and even more so if you're not plumbed in."?

• Do double boilers present a lowered ceiling for shot temperatures, or do they just take longer to get there?

• Would this apply to a double boiler: "utilizing the flow control limits the heat loss" [Manometer. PID. Deck lights. Flow control. ViaVenezia!!]

3. Anyone disagree? : In addition to temperature stability, a double-boiler facilitates easier shot pulling for family & guests who may be impatient, have motor difficulties, or mechanical phobias. All the more in terms of no-wait & no sequence requirments for milk steaming, yes?

4. Thinking out of the box - 'Has Anyone tried things like...?
(maybe my searches were faulty but they came up nil):

• creating something for deflecting rising heat inside a machine (eg, away from the PID) ?

5.

• modding a form of water leak or condensation drip routing within the machine?

6.

• creatively managing airflow inside their machine for whatever purpose?

7.

• using external heating to speed machine warm-up? Despite it being maybe irrational in terms of electricity cost, what about blowing heat at the machine, or even putting it on some form of warming tray (both of which could be added to an external wake-up timer)? I know about changing a room's ambient temperature, of course, and draping a warm/hot damp towell on the group.

8.

• Would it put a double boiler machine at risk of overheating to lay a towel over the cup warming tray, to prevent quick drops in internal heat?

Wow, loads of questions
!
1. Some Vibration pump machines can be plumbed in , having a vibration pump does not preclude plumbing in. Rotary pumps can sound more pleasant to people and are quieter. That said the Lelit quiet vibration pumps are very quiet as well.

2. Dual boiler systems designed well can give advantages such as not having to have a very hot boiler on all the time, reducing heat in the machine. Brewing and steaming are decoupled, certain designs allow for preheat of brew water (increased capacity). One even allows preheat to be switched on or off for low use stability. Plus energy saving

3. Not necessarily, it can because there is no flushing, however I am testing a machine at the moment that is an HX requiring no flushing and you have the MaraX which also can be set to require no flushing. in general apart from the last 2 examples, yes dual boilers are easier to use, but cost more and are more complex

4. The PID displays you see (except in older design machines e.g. Izzo Duetto) are just displays, the components generally now lie in the Gicar, Proelind etc.. box used which is usually mounted in a place where they keep cool.

5. not sure I understand this one?

6. Most machines have vents in the bottom and holes in the top to keep things cool and promote air circulation (a few machines don't), which is obviously not great design.

7. The warm up is mainly due to the group...an E61 can be warmed up in 18 to 20 minutes by programming software to overheat the thermosyphon system for 12 minutes at startup. Actively heated groups are usually ready in 12 - 15 minutes...a lot of that is portafilter and group mass dependent.

8. I wouldn't want to lay a towel on the cup tray to impeded airflow, to say nothing of increasing the fire risk with the machine switching on unattended. Smart switches make warm up time largely meaningless. As long as the machine doesn't have soft switching when the machine always comes on, off/in standby...if you understand what I mean. they need to come on, ON.

"What do you mean by (see underlined) "..not to have to flush [dual boilers] to get to the correct temp, and even more so if you're not plumbed in?"

I just meant that with a reservoir fed machine it can be a PITA to flush a lot as the water reservoir is finite, and the drip tray is usually not plumbed in either. (Of course one can flush into a cup.)

As stated many vibe pump machines are built to be capable of being plumbed in easily.

Adding an inexpensive timer to my setup was a revelation -- it's all ready to go when I wake up!

Everybody has been re welcoming. I'm very appreciative. (After my last post I said "note to self, poorly organized posts and ones with lots of questions are tiresome, not very inviting, not conducive to interaction, difficult to address in a satisfying way, and can seem to be taking people/the forum for granted." Not my intention )

@mrgnomer:
So, @coyote-1 's statement (about ViaVenezia) "utilizing the flow control limits the heat loss" has less relevance to double boiler (DB) machines because the challenge with a DB occurs when you want to decrease the temperature quickly -for different extractions or for profile experimentation, as in back to back shots using different beans or roasts.

"rotary output pressure can be adjusted at the pump. You don't have to adjust the OPV." -I don't recall having read about that before! For some that would trump longevity and decreased noise level as the greatest advantage of rotary pumps. For rotary pump cons, I read somewhere that they slam the puck. That's motive for adding a flow control unit, especially for the sake of enforcing a more gentle pre-infusion?

related, @euryris said:

I have converted my Magica using the Smart Espresso Profiler and a Flow Control kit both on the E61 grouphead. What I notice while using this is that the ramping of the pressure at the start of pulling the E61 lever upward, is at the very least less than ideal for controlling the flow. I would much prefer the behaviour in pressure that is innate to the rotary pump: the steep ramping at the start, and the sharp decline once the E61 lever is pressed down again. The vibration pump ramps up pressures too slowly for this use case.

(I see that I'm moving beyond buying advice here. I'll need to start using a machine of my own to develop both a more lucid and more personal (use-case) understanding of the interrelatedness of pressure-temperature-flow control.)

I'm with Gnomer on the rotary pump. Better than vibe pumps in almost every case. It's quieter, smoother, and the pressure is easily regulatable. Plumbing in is great and should be done when possible. it usually adds better function from the machine, and convenience for use.

Rotary pumps don't have to blast the puck. They can be (and in my experience should be) dialed down to provide lower pressure. Their output is continuous, which means an immediate and steady flow, but various pre infusion techniques and flow control devices can modify this.

@DaveC and everyone: Thank you for your patience with my long-winded, poorly focused posts & questions! I went silent realizing I was abusing your generosity and had nothing constructive to contribute. But you all really did help.

I got the Izzo Alex Duetto IV+, and am very happy with it. Anyone interested in the Duetto, I posted some photos, impressions, and core accessories here: Love my new Izzo Alex Duetto IV Plus (MK619p, ver.Oct2022)!

@SkyBlip did you consider ECM Mechanika Max? I must admit that both machines are worth to consider for me.

Not super constructive to the conversation, but regarding:

Is "PID 7" a PID model number?

A "seven segment" display is the older style digital display to represent a single digit. It is seven little "sticks" arranged in a boxy figure eight and can display any number.